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vedderb
Feature Request - Add Minimum Start Speed and Minimum Brake Speed for ADC
I would like to propose the addition of two essential features to the VESC motor controller firmware - "Minimum Start Speed" and "Minimum Brake Speed." These features aim to enhance safety and address some peculiar issues observed during motor controller operation.
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Minimum Start Speed: The inclusion of a minimum start speed parameter would significantly improve safety during motor activation. Currently, there is a risk of accidental throttle input, causing the motor to start abruptly and potentially posing a safety hazard. By setting a minimum start speed, users can ensure that the motor will not engage until reaching this predefined speed. This implementation will prevent unintended motor activation and reduce the risk of unexpected acceleration, thus making it safer to operate the vehicle.
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Minimum Brake Speed: Presently, the VESC firmware seems to engage braking even at zero speed, leading to unusual behavior upon activation. After being turned on and applying the brake, causes the motor to move backward or forward unexpectedly. Additionally, this behavior may result in strange noises. By introducing the minimum brake speed feature, users can specify a threshold speed below which the braking mechanism will not engage. This enhancement should prevent the erratic braking behavior.
So, about the minimum brake speed, this is more urgent in my opinion, because it is quite a security risk. I am not sure if this is just a me issue, but it happens on multiple setups. Sometimes the electric brake will cause the motor to run backwards, when it lost "track?". This only happens after start-up or sometimes when rolling out.
Yes, I need this as well and I know a few other people who do as well. My motors sucks if starting from a stand still, having them at 1kph works like a charm.
I would be exactly in favor of it too and would wish that if this were implemented it would be much safer and I would feel much more comfortable on the ninebot and Vsett. Thanks for that!
I have been fiending for this feature to be added ever since I have first used a VESC. This would add an optional layer of safety to the system, which would be very greatly appreciated!
To me having the throttle do nothing until you reach a certain speed sounds unsafe and unpredictable. If the thing you are using is very powerful, but twisting the throttle does nothing it can come as a big surprise that it suddenly starts working once you give it a push. Even on the weak rental scooters the fact that I have to push them for the throttle to start working makes them feel unsafe to me; I want to get going and it does nothing when I give it throttle, then I give it a small push while giving it more throttle and it still does nothing, then I give it a bit stronger push and it suddenly goes - that throttle behavior is really my least favorite feature about them. On everything I use I very much prefer that the throttle works from the very start. There is still the argument that if you have a sensorless setup with a motor that is bad at VSS or HFI the throttle won't be smooth until you reach some speed, but in my opinion it is still better than having the seemingly broken throttle that then suddenly starts working when you move. There is also the problem that if there is something wrong with your throttle you won't find that out until you move, at which point that fault is more dangerous.
Regarding the brake, I don't see the problem with having it work the way it does now. On everything I have tried it on it is more or less 100% smooth all the way down to 0. The braking force actually approaches 0 as you reach 0 speed as it only does regenerative braking and never active braking. I have not once seen the motor run backwards when braking as you mentioned, but maybe in your case that is caused by current offsets and setting the regen current to 0 while having no load (or some other bad combination of settings).
So from my perspective your arguments are literally the opposite of what I experience. Before spending work on something and adding settings with the potential of confusing people with even more settings I would like to see a good argument for this feature, especially for the minimum braking speed as I haven't seen the braking behavior you describe. Regarding the braking behavior, it would be nice if you can open an issue about it and provide some steps to reproduce it so that I can see what is going on with your setup.
I don´t think its unsafe or unpredictable, in some countries this is als required by law. We are also talking about min speed of 1kph, to have the motors not stutter, when going offroad and you suddenly came to an halt with one motor.
Also this wont confuse users much further as min speed should be easy to understand besides all the other complicated stuff to adjust. To not confuse users, just have this option deactivated by default.
Saying that you would have a harder time to find a faulty throttle isnt true either, you could either find it in the logs or just show the ADC values in the app.
The thing with the brakes seems like you missunderstood, its not that they are driving backwards while in motion, it happens when you hit the brake while stand still. I noticed this behavior on every VESC Scooter I encountered. This can be very dangerous, especially with higher power motors as they kick much harder. Someone could get injured when I show him how to control the scooter for example.
Im still looking forward to the feature, there are a lot of people who need this and dont agree with your security concerns.
To me having the throttle do nothing until you reach a certain speed sounds unsafe and unpredictable. If the thing you are using is very powerful, but twisting the throttle does nothing it can come as a big surprise that it suddenly starts working once you give it a push. Even on the weak rental scooters the fact that I have to push them for the throttle to start working makes them feel unsafe to me; I want to get going and it does nothing when I give it throttle, then I give it a small push while giving it more throttle and it still does nothing, then I give it a bit stronger push and it suddenly goes - that throttle behavior is really my least favorite feature about them. On everything I use I very much prefer that the throttle works from the very start. There is still the argument that if you have a sensorless setup with a motor that is bad at VSS or HFI the throttle won't be smooth until you reach some speed, but in my opinion it is still better than having the seemingly broken throttle that then suddenly starts working when you move. There is also the problem that if there is something wrong with your throttle you won't find that out until you move, at which point that fault is more dangerous.
Regarding the brake, I don't see the problem with having it work the way it does now. On everything I have tried it on it is more or less 100% smooth all the way down to 0. The braking force actually approaches 0 as you reach 0 speed as it only does regenerative braking and never active braking. I have not once seen the motor run backwards when braking as you mentioned, but maybe in your case that is caused by current offsets and setting the regen current to 0 while having no load (or some other bad combination of settings).
So from my perspective your arguments are literally the opposite of what I experience. Before spending work on something and adding settings with the potential of confusing people with even more settings I would like to see a good argument for this feature, especially for the minimum braking speed as I haven't seen the braking behavior you describe. Regarding the braking behavior, it would be nice if you can open an issue about it and provide some steps to reproduce it so that I can see what is going on with your setup.
It would be much safer, maybe not in your case, but in mine and for many others bc of that.
https://github.com/vedderb/bldc/assets/171622807/48c8d9ea-4f96-41ae-b1fb-a3b01fc2708b
The thing with the brakes seems like you missunderstood, its not that they are driving backwards while in motion, it happens when you hit the brake while stand still. I noticed this behavior on every VESC Scooter I encountered. This can be very dangerous, especially with higher power motors as they kick much harder. Someone could get injured when I show him how to control the scooter for example.
Again, the brake issue you are talking about is something I have never seen, even when using the brake while standing still. Please open a separate issue about that and show me how I can reproduce what you are seeing. I have no idea how things are connected and configured on your scooter, so the video does not help.
I don´t think its unsafe or unpredictable, in some countries this is als required by law. We are also talking about min speed of 1kph, to have the motors not stutter, when going offroad and you suddenly came to an halt with one motor.
You are not addressing any of the points I made. Also, if you use the argument "required by law" please provide some evidence that 1) that is true and 2) how adding that feature will make any difference in making your diy-scooter count as legal on public roads.
Saying that you would have a harder time to find a faulty throttle isnt true either, you could either find it in the logs or just show the ADC values in the app.
I don't understand how you even can make this argument. When I build something and configure it I start by putting the wheel(s) it has above ground so that it cannot move, then I connect to it, configure things and test the throttle as I do that. Then when I see that the throttle behaves reasonable I put it on the ground and continue testing. If It requires that I test the thing in person or push the wheels with my fingers before I have any idea what the throttle does it is obviously more likely that I get hurt.
Sorry, but your arguments just seems to be bogus to me. You arent even adressing the issue we are up to, but yes about the brake I can open it as an issue, once my scooter is up and running again.
If you fail to address my points, downvote my reply where I spend honest effort on trying to explain my view and call my arguments bogus my motivation to spend time on fixing your issues is absolutely zero. If you want things to change you must be able to participate in a constructive conversation.
Keep in mind that I think your arguments are bogus too, but I try to have a conversation and understand them at least.
@vedderb you keep missing the point that it's a legal requirement in a lot of places regardless of your opinion.
@vedderb you keep missing the point that it's a legal requirement in a lot of places regardless of your opinion.
I already responded to exactly that point. Are you able to read?
@vedderb you keep missing the point that it's a legal requirement in a lot of places regardless of your opinion.
I already responded to exactly that point. Are you able to read?
your reply was basically "prove it"
In the past there have been several people asking me to implement complicated and weird features to meet legal requirements, especially when it comes to power and average power. Trying to do that would make things a lot more complicated and probably still not meet those requirements. Therefore, if you can make a good argument for a feature other than your interpretation of legal requirements, you better provide a good reason. So yes, pleas prove it!
In my video, I showed why it's a problem, especially with the brake, but also with the throttle if you accidentally hit it when it's standing still. Of course, on a Onewheel or skateboard, it's a different situation. However, for a bike or scooter, having this feature adds a nice layer of security and is a good option to have.
The D-Norm isnt technically a law, but youre still required to follow the rules written in it, when you want to make a street legal scooter. That wouldnt make the DIY scooter legal, but less obvious in case of a police inspection.
In my video, I showed why it's a problem, especially with the brake, but also with the throttle if you accidentally hit it when it's standing still. Of course, on a Onewheel or skateboard, it's a different situation. However, for a bike or scooter, having this feature adds a nice layer of security and is a good option to have.
This is getting funny... I also literally spelled out that your video does not help me and that I need more details as your braking issue is not happening to me on any setup I have.
The Issue happens to a lot of people. Directly connecting the Hall of the Brake lever to the ADC ports of the Controller. Everyone who uses E-Brake has this issue tbh.
Also, the argument "it is dangerous that the motor runs when pushing the throttle" is very strange. It does exactly what it is supposed to do. If you leave you car running in drive with the door open when kids are around you are doing something very irresponsible and adding a weird quirk to it does not solve that problem except in maybe a few very unusual cases.
The Issue happens to a lot of people. Directly connecting the Hall of the Brake lever to the ADC ports of the Controller. Everyone who uses E-Brake has this issue tbh.
AGAIN, it does not happen to me and the only way I can do ANYTHING about it is if you give me detailed steps to reproduce it.
Also, the argument "it is dangerous that the motor runs when pushing the throttle" is very strange. It does exactly what it is supposed to do. If you leave you car running in drive with the door open when kids are around you are doing something very irresponsible and adding a weird quirk to it does not solve that problem except in maybe a few very unusual cases.
So that means the Car shouldnt move when pressing the brake pedal xD
I dont see whats issue here right now. Is it hard to implement? Everyone in this thread says they this issue, just because you dont have it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Just have the brake not working below 1kph, it doesnt works below that speed anyways.
In my video, I showed why it's a problem, especially with the brake, but also with the throttle if you accidentally hit it when it's standing still. Of course, on a Onewheel or skateboard, it's a different situation. However, for a bike or scooter, having this feature adds a nice layer of security and is a good option to have.
This is getting funny... I also literally spelled out that your video does not help me and that I need more details as your braking issue is not happening to me on any setup I have.
Why is this funny? It's an issue many people have. To give you more details, the brake hall sensor is connected to the ADC port. It seems like when you press it, the motor is searching for the position. Regarding the throttle, it's just an additional layer of safety. What is so hard to understand?
So that means the Car shouldnt move when pressing the brake pedal xD
This is getting exceptionally frustrating. I do NOT have the braking issue and I NEED steps to reproduce it to do ANYTHING.
This is going nowhere and the tone keeps getting works. Perfect way of ruining my Sunday afternoon, thank you!