surge
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surge-synthesizer
Velocity is backwards
Velocity .. its a tool many musicians use to "express" the note in more ways than just ON/OFF... it typically allows a musician to vary the volume of the note .. and most Daw's support the function of allowing a note velocity .. to which the Synth then responds via .. whats commonly refered to as "Velocity Sensitivity" ..
In surge this is functioned by the Slider next to Gain in the AMP EG section .. as pictured below .. it is labeled "Vel"
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Typically 100% ie, Vel slider being all the way up referencing in the case of surge 0.00dB .. would mean the user has the Highest amount and thusly MOST velocity sensitivty from a note in a DAW sending velocity information ..
In the case of surge as referenced from the manual we have .. a difference case.. It's backwards..
As mentioned above and also noted (pardon the pun) .. by several users on the Slack .. It is expected that velocity = 100% sensitivity rather than "Neutral" .. at Full Vertical deflection of the Vel slider..
I propose that we have this ammended.. in the interest of very easy and functional use of the Velocity response capabilities that i know Surge .. truly has ..
NB: I have provided some testing Proof that the velocity response is infact backwards to what people would normally expect.. in the following bitwig file .. for your own testing purposes..
@baconpaul imho, any change like this should be configurable in the settings menu. Because, there will be people who have built presets and whole songs based on Surge working one way, and if this, second way, is implemented, all their tracks will break.
incidentally the Patch reference for this i believe .. is <a_vca_velsense type="2" value="0.000000"> in the FXP file ..
I have to say i think this is a reasonably important thing to address as it has already been noticed by several casual users of Surge .. and although i would highly doubt many of the existing preset included patches even vary this value <a_vca_velsense type="2" value="0.000000" .. there might be some who do and who want to use Velocity sensitivity to add expression to their patches.. and for those .. who do it should be allowed in a normal way that is typically 100% Vel = 100% Velocity sensitivity.
@esaruoho there would be a migration so existing patches sound the same, just with the updated behavior
@kzantow which is pretty easy right ? running a script on existing patches with regard to <a_vca_velsense type="2" value="0.000000">
and shipping further builds once Velocity is ammended in the code.. with those ammended patches too.. right? thusly removing any need for any fear of patches breaking that are "old" which are now .. not old..
@esaruoho there would be a migration so existing patches sound the same, just with the updated behavior
i don't see how this doesn't ruin songs made with user-defined Surge sounds saved into the song and sounding a specific way..
And let's not forget, we have no control over Surge preset packs that were made with Surge 1.52 on mind. what happens when you load those preset packs in, and the patch does not sound like it should?
<a_vca_velsense type="2" value="0.000000"> that doesnt exist in a FXP on surge 1.52 presets?
and it kinda makes Zero sense that you cant "access" Surge 1.52 presets @esaruoho because all you need to do is load it then save it again and you have an FXP..
and if someone wants to furnish me with a list of such "Surge 1.52" patches.. ill happily "convert" them to 1.6 patches
and it kinda makes Zero sense that you cant "access" Surge 1.52 presets @esaruoho because all you need to do is load it then save it again and you have an FXP..
and if someone wants to furnish me with a list of such "Surge 1.52" patches.. ill happily "convert" them to 1.6 patches
Tell me how you will "convert" to 1.6 patches this package that is being sold, and is on a server that you have no access to. https://www.mysteryislands-music.com/product/vember-audio-surge-residue-soundset/
You will do no such thing. Because you don't have access to each and every preset pack downloaded by each and every downloader of each and every preset pack that exists for Surge.
We're talking about basically ruining people's songs when they switch from 1.52 to Surge 1.6. This is not something to be spoken about lightly and in a jokey manner.
If the plugin breaks songs, users of Surge 1.52 who used it years ago, will not want to upgrade to a Surge 1.6.
oh more insider information.. i had no idea surge packs for a now FREE OPEN SOURCE SYNTH will be SOLD.. nor did i know theres some hidden super special STASH of "1.52" Surge patches! ..
But hey if there is .. if SOMEONE would like to furnish them to me.. ill be more than happy to CONVERT Them to 1.6 surge .. by loading them and saving them? oh thats right.. 1.52 patches PROBABLY wont work anyway will they ? since they were made with an OLDER version of surge .. and surge is in 2019 now.. with 1.6 ..
But hey if there is MAGIC afoot with for some unknown reason shipping 1.52 patches of Surge for 1.6 Surge .. that OBVIOUSLY means someone has already FIXED them to work .. so i dont really see what the problem is at all.. with then having THEIR <a_vca_velsense type="2" value="0.000000"> modified in the FXP file ..?
Oh yeah that url references ONE pack .. https://www.mysteryislands-music.com/brand/vember-audio/surge/
with a total of 40 Presets.. not overly difficult to convert at all.. and btw i dont think its VEMBER anything anymore ..
You seem to be purposefully ignoring what I am saying, so I will, once again, explain.
This change will break songs and presets. Songs that are on people's harddrives, presets that are on people's harddrives. I realise that you seem to be ignoring the magnitude of how much this matters.
If there are changes made into how presets, and, by extension, songs, are loaded/played, this will mean that songs, that worked with Surge 1.52, will break on Surge 1.6.
This means that the plugin is untrustworthy. It therefore will not work like it used to, and I realise that the common theme seems to be "screw them all, who cares about their music, let's break stuff", but I really don't think that's the way to go.
That's why I suggested, that this could be a menu switch for those that actually need this. Those that don't need it, will use the regular Surge, and their songs will not break.
This is about trustworthiness, nothing else.
Yes, people are selling, and giving away presets that were created with Surge 1.52. Yes, they should play like they should - i.e., if you have made a song with presets or self-made sounds, which played 1 way with Surge 1.52, they should play that same way with 1.6.
You have no worldwide control over the internet's .zip content of Surge presets. You never have, and you never will. So don't propose that you can just go, and tell people "yeah so like these presets you're selling, they don't work with Surge 1.6 so here's a fixed bunch of presets where they will work with 1.6".
Most people that use Surge daily, are still using Surge 1.52. They will move, when they can be sure that Surge 1.6 does not crash or break their songs. It would be correct to expect that a preset made with Surge 1.6 would play, currently, identically with 1.52. Same the other way.
If you make a preset with Surge 1.52, it should play the same way with Surge 1.6.
I gave you an example of a surge preset pack made for 1.52. There are multiple such packs. You seem to be hell-bent on having a problem with it being a paid patch pack.
There are numerous places all over the web that give away free Surge 1.52 presets, and they work with Surge 1.52.
They should also play the same way with Surge 1.6. For you to purposefully, repeatedly, ignore this, is beyond me.
ahh yeh ok .. lets just leave it like this then
and advise everyone that comes into #general asking "hey why doesnt velocity work?" .. Oh thats because intuitively you're meant to turn your "Vel" knob .. down to ZERO .. which means it has 100% velocity sensitivity ..
yeah..
its actually You that is missing .. and conflating THIS issue with your idea of me wanting to break surge .. totally absurge!
Disclaimer:
This ISSUE is specifically stated to be about the Vel slider @ AMP envelope and how it currently functions inside Surge.. any link about "breaking patches" is not intended nor considered at the time of making this issue..
i don't grok why we can't just have a setting in the settings menu for surge 1.52 compatibility Mode ON, where it is OFF by default? ya know?
This is a long thread which I haven’t fully read but I see I got tagged!
Anyway I don’t plan to work on it any time soon - bitmap arity, userdefaults and saved zoom, vst3 zoom, and mpe polyphony would all come ahead. So I think we have enough time to hear from @kurasu who designed it.
are you guys confusing the value and the display of value? Like if the slider was flipped and tooltip was different but values in internal engine were completely the same would this whole problem just be solved? Is it just “the value at the top of the slider should be the one at the bottom and vice versa?”
I agree with @esaruoho that patch compatabikit with 152 is a key goal
i hope you do plan on it before "release" .. because velocity 100% = 0 is a pretty significant issue for a new user of a Synth..
unless it just stays like this
Well either someone will work on it, someone will make a case that it is correct, or this issue will be open when we do a release, or there will never be a release. I know one of those four is true.
Don’t know if it will be me. I appreciate your hope for my plans tho...
I haven’t played with the slider to see what it does. Before I started making a case coding or proposing anything I would, as would, I hope, some other person who was making a case coding or proposing would too!
So I was conversing with sense about this and verified that this is an issue in 1.5.2 as well as 1.6. My idea is to simply change the display so it is inverted. No change to patches or DSP code needed.
lets also talk to @kurasu about this .. and see what he says .. but i think thats a great fix if it is to be changed @sagantech
note: i did read "Vel" to be a function of Velocity sensitivity control and i would imagine most new users of Surge would also think it i s..
@sagantech - thanks. If it really is just a display thing the fix is super easy. Won’t break anyone’s track or anything.
@baconpaul why don't you do a test yourself ? i provided the bitwig file..
Hmm having some discussions with @kzantow about this .. we make the point that "Velocity" is already a mod parameter in the synth .. that can be routed at will by the user to everything and anything they want.. In many ways this makes the "vel" reasonably redundant..
We make a tentative proposal to use that slider for something else.. perhaps a Pan?..
thoughts? .. harsh rebuttals? welcome..