Quest: Is this lock self_service.

[paulklie]

In https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/discussions/6457 I originally suggested copying the existing Car wash quest to use for locks, which @RaphaLLamothe already started implementing in https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/compare/master...HugoTHOLLON:StreetCompleteSAE_S5:kind-of-lock. However, after reconsidering I do not think it can be reused so easily, since a few possible tag combinations (self_service=only or automated=yes together with manual=yes for example) make little sense here.

Instead I think a simple yes/no quest for self_service would be a better start, and created this for a more in depth discussion:

General

Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: self_service Question asked: Is this lock operated by staff (remotely or in person)?

Checklist

Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):

• [x] 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose
• [x] 🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)
• [ ] 🐿️ Easily answerable by any pedestrian from the outside but a survey is necessary
• [x] 💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)
• [x] 🕓 Applies to a reasonable number of map data (Worth the effort) Over 15k locks are mapped so far.

I think for some (unmanned) locks, where it is not explicitly signed, it might be a bit harder for a pedestrian to answer, though most of them have signs in my region. However for a person passing by in a boat, or anyone watching a boat use the lock it should be rather obvious.

Ideas for implementation

Simple yes/no form.

Element selection:

lock=yes
and !self_service

[matkoniecz]

<confused mapper mode>

Question asked: Is this lock operated by staff (remotely or in person)?

wiki has:

self_service=yes - the lock is operated by switches or a remote control from the captain of the ship

captain of the ship also can be staff. Can this question be made more clear?

[paulklie]

captain of the ship is also staff. Can this question be made more clear?

Hmmm good point.

What about "who operates this lock?" two text options: The crew of the boat Lock staff(remotely or in person.)

[peternewman]

<confused mapper mode>

I think it's the wiki that's confused!

It's got the following:

automated=yes - the lock is operated from a control room self_service=yes - the lock is operated by switches or a remote control from the captain of the ship manual=yes - the lock is operated manually (with muscle power)

I think we could do with clarifying how the tag has been used already/is actually intended to be used.

A traditional manual lock (e.g. on a UK canal from the 1800s), such as this one ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_(water_navigation)#/media/File:Lock_and_cottage_on_Aylesbury_Arm_of_Grand_Union_-geograph.org.uk-_112420.jpg ).

Consists of manually operated paddles which need winding up and down to control the flow of the water. I think historically though, they'd be operated by the lock keeper who lived in the nearby cottage ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_keeper ). So would presumably be:

automated=no
manual=yes
self_service=no

In more recent times, the lock keeper doesn't exist/the cottage has been sold on, so they're operated by someone from the boat. Which I think makes them:

automated=no
manual=yes
self_service=yes

Bigger locks (e.g. on the Thames) may well be automated, but I think could be either:

automated=yes
manual=no
self_service=no

or

automated=yes
manual=no
self_service=yes

I can't say for certain on the lock front, but I've seen swing/lift bridges matching all of those definitions in the UK, apart from the first one.

I'm unclear what these two variants would represent/why they aren't being done as one key:

automated=no
manual=no

or

automated=yes
manual=yes

As mentioned above, I also don't see why this quest couldn't also be extended to swing/lift bridges for the same reasons.

On the no-spam front, I'd estimate 95% of the locks on the traditional canals in the UK will be as follows:

automated=no
manual=yes
self_service=yes

Although the average person won't pass by them too often, so maybe it's acceptable (compared to say street lights)?

[paulklie]

Thank you for your research, I agree with your conclusion and understanding of the tagging. However:

As mentioned above, I also don't see why this quest couldn't also be extended to swing/lift bridges for the same reasons.

I think near bridges, the vast majority of users who would see this quest would be on top of the bridge, and thus might be unable to see any signage indicating if it is self service or not. while for locks, most users will be on boats, and thus have a clearer perspective.

Btw: I forgot: The big benefit of this tag is that we can also ask for the operating times of locks with self_service=no, since it does not make sence to ask for self_service locks.

[matkoniecz]

I think it's the wiki that's confused!

then it definitely should be fixed first!

Anyone interested in making https://community.openstreetmap.org/ thread to confirm how wiki should be changed? Or is it obvious/clear enough that wiki should be simply edited (maybe it was recently broken by bad edits?)

[paulklie]

I have created a thread: https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/ship-lock-self-service-automated-manual/136862

[RaphaLLamothe]

Currently, I’m working on this quest, and I noticed that self_service has 4 attributes listed on the StreetComplete wiki. Will the form be a simple yes/no question, or will it be a more detailed form with the options from the wiki?

[mcliquid]

Will the form be a simple yes/no question, or will it be a more detailed form with the options from the wiki?

I took a quick look at the four values and would say that you need all four, including the description. Therefore just a selection list (radio buttons) with four strings that explain the four values as best as possible.

[paulklie]

I think waiting for the discussion in the forums to conclude, before implementation, might be best here.