try to clarify what tactile paving isn't

[mnalis]

As mentioned in closed related issue https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/6233#issuecomment-2845871550 by @dreirund and @uw-amy-bordenave, with current explanation and pictures it is still not very clear what tactile paving is or isn't.

This PR tries to at least expand the text explanation to better describe it, which seems like low-hanging fruit. (other suggestions mentioned there, like separate image gallery for "Don't mark this", seems to be much more complex ideas)

If people have further suggestions, they're welcome!

Question:: Also, as it changes text extensively, should we make it a new text forcing re-translation (i.e. delete quest_generic_looks_like_this and add quest_generic_looks_like_this2); or is it just to (somehow?) be marked as "fuzzy" in poeditor?

[matkoniecz]

delete quest_generic_looks_like_this and add quest_generic_looks_like_this2

this would delete all existing translations

AFAIK fuzzy marking will happen on simply changing English text

[uw-amy-bordenave]

I should mention that what I previously wrote is no longer true:

@uw-amy-bordenave (link) I don't think tactile_paving=primitive is very useful information.

(I edited the post to make that clear and link here)

I spoke with a member of our team and, as a blind/low-vision user, he explained that information about these kinds of "primitive" tactile paving (meaning, surface treatments to increase roughness) is actually useful.

Of course, presence of the standardized truncated dome tactile warning surfaces and whether they are aligned or misaligned with the direction of crossing are more important, but this kind of surface treatment (so, undetectable by a surface=* change since both the sidewalks and curb ramp are both surface=concrete) is marginally useful.

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I do think that editing the text to more clearly guide users away from tagging the "primitive" surface changes as tactile_paving=yes is helpful.

[dreirund]

I spoke with a member of our team and, as a blind/low-vision user, he explained that information about these kinds of "primitive" tactile paving (meaning, surface treatments to increase roughness) is actually useful.

So that advocates in favour to add tactile_paving=primitive, or tactile_paving=cobblestone, as possible answers?

And: What does the person you spoke with about all the examples given in this thread where sett stone is used as a messed-up try to get tactile information?

[uw-amy-bordenave]

tactile_paving=cobblestone - no, that's a surface material change and should be tagged as such, or wrapped into =primitive tactile_paving=primitive - yes, I guess that's as good a catch-all as we have for "There's not the locally-standardized tactile paving here, but there is something recognizably different"

[mnalis]

TL;DR: discussion about limited or its alternative should happen elsewhere[^1]. The PR here is about how to make current answers more clear (i.e. what option to choose in tactile paving quest) until such time as useful limited-alike alternative is accepted by wider community

(because that process is invariably going to take some time, and people currently might be putting wrong yes answers in confusion, making the feature less useful for future uses - so quick and interim solution is IMHO desired)

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(I edited the post to make that clear and link here)

Note however while editing is fine (to be done in addition), for such drastic changes in opinion one should really also make an separate comment there (as GitHub will not notify anybody who already participated in the discussion of such change).

I spoke with a member of our team and, as a blind/low-vision user, he explained that information about these kinds of "primitive" tactile paving (meaning, surface treatments to increase roughness) is actually useful.

It might be useful if tactile_paving=primitive was defined on the wiki to mean such. Unfortunately, it is not. It is rather vague , and in parts where it is explicit it mentions a whole other range of things to be tagged as such, such as "any water drain". As people had been it using it according to its defined meaning, that value is now likely "burned".

see https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/6233#issuecomment-2840273965 and linked discussions about why I think "there is something here that is different which might help with orientation, but we cannot tell you what it is, not even roughly" (i.e. limited) is not useful, while something more precise (like grated_concrete) perhaps might be, provided it is documented from the start with good and detailed explanation and at least several example pictures of what qualifies and several examples of what does not.

Anyway, discussion implementing some other value than yes and no is much better done elsewhere.

I'd suggest that interested party (@uw-amy-bordenave ?):

• opens a wider community discussion at https://community.openstreetmap.org/c/general/tagging/70/ (do link to that discussion in related GitHub issues here, that linked Discourse thread, and from Talk:Key:tactile_paving wiki talk page however - so interested parties may follow and provide feedback). Involve your blind friend, and clarify with them what exactly (situation and wording) would be useful to them and what wouldn't?

  Also, are they already using a software solution that already warns them (or help them plan) using official tactile_paving=yes in OSM database? If yes, which one, and how exactly does it work, and how happy they are with it? If not, perhaps that is low-hanging fruit that should be implemented first - and then feedback from blind persons gathered about usability of that feature, and discussed how it could be further improved.

  Note that many things sound good in theory, but end up totally unusable in practice, so not every idea is actionable. :shrug:

• when some conclusion is reached by the wider community, document it in the wiki (as noted, with detailed explanation and multiple "this is" and "this is not" examples, both in pictures and in accompanying text explaining why)

• only after those steps are completed, open a new GitHub issue for StreetComplete, noting what changed since

(yes, it is not trivial task, but you'll get help from others if you start it, and it might result in something that is actually usable to blind persons in practice)

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Orthogonality to that limited-alternative discussion , if you have suggestions how to improve wording for current quest (i.e. the only with only yes and no answers), please do leave them in this PR!

[^1]: i.e. StreetComplete shouldn't be the one inventing tags -- instead, StreetComplete should only be using tags which are already agreed upon by the wider OSM community, and which are clearly defined in the wiki, and have reasonable number of usages in the database, and can be presented in simple, short and clear way to the target SC audience (who are not expected to know anything about OSM or its tagging). See Quest guidelines for details. If those guidelines cannot be fulfilled, then such proposed answers should not be presented to users, and if those missing answer causes huge problems with resulting tagging, then perhaps whole quest might be disabled by default, or even considered for removal to prevent further damage.

[mnalis]

(note to self: that should be separate value after all, not quest_generic_looks_like_this, as the change makes it non-generic).

[matkoniecz]

@mnalis mnalis marked this pull request as draft May 21, 2025 15:54

are you progressing with it? or are you stuck on something specific?

If it is "discussion about limited or its alternative should happen elsewhere" - have you started it?

[uw-amy-bordenave]

Are image examples needed? If so, all of the images in TaskarCenterAtUW/tdei-tools/images are released by us with CC0 licensing.

Example for "this is a surface treatment, not tactile paving" (valid example for tactile_paving=primitive)

I also have additional examples that just haven't been uploaded there yet: Example for "this has both tactile paving and a surface treatment"

(Happy to put originals for any of these on Wikimedia Commons as needed)

[mnalis]

are you progressing with it? or are you stuck on something specific?

@matkoniecz No, it is finished (and marked as ready for review for two weeks). I just missed it in bunch of other TODOs initially until you reminded me :sweat_smile: (thanks for that ping!)

The new text in this PR looks like this:

Are image examples needed?

not for this PR @uw-amy-bordenave (which is specifically only about making only text changes due to issues mentioned in e.g. https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/6233#issuecomment-2847083424)

But if you upload them to Commons, they would be very useful to add to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tactile_paving#Gallery with descriptions you mention! (let me know if you need help with adding them to OSM wiki)

[uw-amy-bordenave]

Ok! I'm very familiar with OSM Wiki editing and have already put some images on Commons, but I have a really big backlog of images to work through.

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The updated text doesn't mention these "surface roughness treatments" - should it?

<string name="quest_tactile_paving_looks_like_this">Note that mere surface transitions (e.g. sett) or anti-slip strips (e.g. on steps) do NOT count as tactile paving. Tactile paving usually looks like this:</string>

→

<string name="quest_tactile_paving_looks_like_this">Note that surface material transitions (e.g. sett), surface roughness treatments, and anti-slip strips (e.g. on steps) do NOT count as tactile paving. Tactile paving usually looks like this:</string>

[mnalis]

The updated text doesn't mention these "surface roughness treatments" - should it?

Dunno. I kinda find in implied by surface changes and additional example of anti-slip strips...

But if others indicate (with likes on that post) that extra string length (which makes whole explanation less likely to be read) improves clarity noticeably I'd gladly add that too!

Ok! I'm very familiar with OSM Wiki editing and have already put some images on Commons, but I have a really big backlog of images to work through.

No worries, there is no particular hurry - whenever you have time is great! :heart:

[uw-amy-bordenave]

@mnalis It could be further shortened to:

<string name="quest_tactile_paving_looks_like_this">Note that surface material transitions, surface roughness treatments, and anti-slip strips do NOT count as tactile paving, which usually looks like this:</string>