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space-wizards
Apply robust harvest effect to current plant only and not offspring
About the PR
Reworked the effects of Robust Harvest to be more temporary. Now it gives a boost to the potency of the current plant that is no longer inherited by any offspring. The boost is additive with the plant's base potency and any mutation it has, no longer limiting the combined potency. Currently the maximum boost is 45. The yield decrease from overdose has been made to affect YieldMod instead, making it also temporary. The seedless effect from Robust Harvest has been removed.
Why / Balance
Arguably more realistic than just fertilising once and making all subsequent plants give overgrown crops. The seedless trait is AFAIK largely meant to prevent the easy production of powerful plants, since this makes the resulting seeds no longer as potent, I hope it's fair to no longer use it for fertiliser.
This would make it somewhat easier to avoid getting seedless plants, at least for the less experimentative botanists, and keep plant "lineages" alive. Conversely, it adds both a resource and work cost to keeping the plants potent by needing each new plant to be independently fertilised. Hopefully that's a fair trade-off. It also makes the effectiveness of fertiliser and mutations no longer dependent on each other, making it .
Technical details
Adds new fields to plantholdercomponent and producecomponent to store the potency boost and the potency of the produce. The boost is added to the base potency of a plant when harvesting. Robust Harvest now only increases the potency boost. YeildMod has been replaced with a float for easier modification.
Media
The bottom tray has had 15u of Robust Harvest added to it.
- [X] I have added screenshots/videos to this PR showcasing its changes ingame, or this PR does not require an ingame showcase
Breaking changes
The functions responsible for creating produce in the BotanySystem have been changed to take potency boost as an argument. The name of Potency in SeedData was changed to BasePotency, reflecting the "inherited" potency, rather than increase caused by RH. If this breaks something, change the reference to the variable to whatever is appropriate in your scope. YeildMod has been replaced with a float.
Changelog
:cl:
- tweak: Robust Harvest no longer makes a plant's seeds more potent, but stacks independently with mutations for up to 45 additional potency at 15 units.
- tweak: Robust Harvest no longer makes plants seedless.
shakes head....you will make it even harder since you anyway will hit seedless wall ...once you try to mutate potency up or crossbreed....(once you crossbreed it gets mostly seedless or mutate gets too so you only add another layer of work on the existing stuff ) you would nerv botany even harder , aslong with the cliping change so idk just do it because everyone will lose interest in even the simplest form of botany ..honestl idk where you get those...stupid ideas ... i would rather compliment you if you fix the broken code with yield...since you cant get more than 5 yield but in the code it clearly says it can go up to 10 ( but a % mechanic prevents it after 5 yield)
also whats arguably more realistic about this? I farm IRL and if you genetically modify a crop its seeds inherit the genetic modification smdh
"oh yeah if you pull the seeds from those big purple heirloom tomatoes you're actually just gonna get a regular tomato. obviously."
also whats arguably more realistic about this? I farm IRL and if you genetically modify a crop its seeds inherit the genetic modification smdh
Isn't Robust Harvest just fertilizer though? Feeding a plant shouldn't genetically modify it. My SS14 botany knowledge is limited, but isn't that supposed to be the role of unstable mutagen or Left 4 Zed?
Edit: looking at the wiki for tgstation, robust harvest is actually used to stabilize plant genetics and stop further mutations.
I'd like to note, for the record, potency increases from mutation and crossbreeding are supposed to work as previously. This change is only meant to affect things that use the RobustHarvest effect.
you mean like rather from starting at 50 potency trying to get higher potency via mutation you now have to start from 5-15 potency at most from plant basis.....since robust doesnt carry potency over...add that to the clipping stuff have fun playing.....this not only doest avoid seedless plants at all , it even makes it harder to get stable higher potency without relying on a whole arsenal of chemicals... and seed production
If I have understood your code changes correctly, robust harvest will still reduce the yield, which is genetic, while only giving a temporary potency bonus.
Robust harvest is capped at 50 potency. For higher values mutation is needed, so I do not think it is overpowered.
The yield decrease is already there to balance the higher amount of reagents. The total amount of reagents per harvest is only increased slightly. The main difference is that much less grinding is needed. I often see chemistry not use the medicinal plants botany provides because grinding them up would be too much work. With this PR this would become even worse.
You would need a huge amount of robust harvest to produce a reasonable amount of higher potency harvest. I don't think it is worth it for chemistry to make that only for a minor harvest reagent increase, when you could just harvest more plants instead.
All in all I think botany has recently been nerfed enough with the clipping changes. I used to play botanist a lot, but at the moment it is not so much fun and I generally see a lack of botany players. I hope this will change with the upcoming addition of the plant analyzer.
If I have understood your code changes correctly, robust harvest will still reduce the yield, which is genetic, while only giving a temporary potency bonus.
Robust harvest is capped at 50 potency. For higher values mutation is needed, so I do not think it is overpowered.
If I understand the code right, the yield decrease is only when you add too much of the reagent and it still metabolises while the plant is maxed out. Though I should probably rewrite that part as well, since it would be odd that one effect is temporary while the other is permanent.
If I understand the code right, the yield decrease is only when you add too much of the reagent and it still metabolises while the plant is maxed out.
Oh, you are right. I always added 15u of RH, which is enough for increasing potency to 50 and sometimes reduced the yield depending on the base potency (somewhere from 1-25). But I think both changes either being temporary or permanent would be more consistent. Otherwise clipping yield would decrease over time.
I still think RH is currently underused. As a chemist I don't want to grind up plants the whole shift. But maybe this could be balanced by allowing more than 6 objects in the grinder at the same time.
Yeah robust harvest caps out potency at 50, and going above requires mutations that we could do
The thing is mutations are unpredictable and rather hell to keep track of (especially without plant scanner still); I personally wouldn't try mutating for higher potency beyond 50, let for lineage to retain any increased potency at all
Just consider the fact you're swapping out a consistent mechanic for more RNG, and getting mutagen itself can be rng depending on availability and mood of chemists
why you gatta keep ruining botany bruv
~~It makes me feel powerful.~~
I'll be honest, I don't have the best design sense.
how about this then...let the default robust there as it is default but add the option to go from 50 to 100 potency temporary . Currently with the clipping stuf noone tries to increase beyond 50 potency because it just takes so much time and its not really worth at the current state , a 50 potency deus gives only 2 omnizine around at 100 potency its just 3 omnizine , other chemicals might be more but you can still tweak it you need like 30u robust to get from 50 to 100 to increase demand of chemical when there is a dire situation to provide more chemicals but harder to use it if you dont have enought robust it might also not be a good designt but atleast its not a fully nerf but an addition
All in all I think botany has recently been nerfed enough with the clipping changes. I used to play botanist a lot, but at the moment it is not so much fun and I generally see a lack of botany players. I hope this will change with the upcoming addition of the plant analyzer.
since the clipping stuff came like half of the good botanist quit because it was no longer fun and removed lots of possibilitys you could do as botanist , it was overall terrible designt with seed health and stage 2 restriction since mostly kudzu destroys it befor you can clip or other issues while mutating or even keeping the most basic linage alive forcing you to either use tons of dylo ,resetting seed just with cryoxdone or grow tons of your own fertilizer plants in addition to hoarding seeds .....like if it would just consume a lot of water and nutriment from tray if you clip instead the other stuff...you atleast have to constantly also refillt trays with stuff but arent bound to do tons of micromanagment to make sure planst are healed all the time for more seed ect ect
Ok, made some adjustments. Now the effect is just a temporary additive bonus to the crop, independent of the base potency or any mutations. This should at least make it easier to use alongside mutations. So, if you can mutate a plant to 50 base potency, RH would still be able give an additional 45 (exact numbers may change). Might need some balancing.
So I did some math and testing for some common ingredients. In the following table I calculated the ingredient gain from 15u of RH which gives you a 45 potency bonus. This costs chemistry 5 nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium each to make.
| name | chemical | potency divisor | amount at base potency | amount increase from RH |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| wheat | flour | 20 | 5.25u | 2.5u |
| cannabis | THC | 10 | 3u | 4.5u |
| ambrosia deus | omnizine | 35 | 1.29u | 1.29u |
| galaxy thistle | stellibinin | 4 | 3.5u | 11.25u |
| fly amanita | amatoxin | 4 | 3.5u | 11.25u |
| koibean | carpotoxin | 30 | 1.17u | 1.5u |
In many cases is is easier and cheaper to simply harvest another plant than to use the new RH. I do not think it is worth it for chemistry to make RH for botany under these conditions. Potency would have to be completely rebalanced around this change.
You might also want to wait with balancing until this PR is merged since it changes how potency works.
Another problem I see is that the potency change is no longer directly communicated to the player. Previously this was done by clipping the plant and checking the seed. For temporary changes this is not possible.
Personally I would prefer if this change was not merged, even if balanced. While it would be more realistic, it is ok to sacrifice some realism for game design reasons.
@slarticodefast You make a good point. It should be balanced to be worthwhile to use. I think I'm conceptually on a worthwhile track with this change, but it does indeed need balancing.
Reopened since this author's repoban was in error. (The ban was made due to a misunderstood reference to the stonewall riots in an april fools PR)
As a botanist main I don't get why people are mad at this change. After the clipping changes you couldn't use Robust anyway, if you were doing mutation and you want to be able to have the ability to get seeds from the mutated plant. Honestly, i wish seedless was completely removed, and yield was capped to 3 on default seeds and capped to 5 trough mutations. This would incentivize getting higher potency, instead of spamming plants, but this a different topic, probably. I wonder though - if you mutate plant to 44 potency, add Robust to get 89 "temporary" potency, and mutate potency again. Would it jump to 86/100 potency or 30/58 potency?
As a botanist main I don't get why people are mad at this change. After the clipping changes you couldn't use Robust anyway, if you were doing mutation and you want to be able to have the ability to get seeds from the mutated plant. Honestly, i wish seedless was completely removed, and yield was capped to 3 on default seeds and capped to 5 trough mutations. This would incentivize getting higher potency, instead of spamming plants, but this a different topic, probably. I wonder though - if you mutate plant to 44 potency, add Robust to get 89 "temporary" potency, and mutate potency again. Would it jump to 86/100 potency or 30/58 potency?
you clearly arent a main botanist , because else you would just heal the robusted plant to get more clippings via nutri/vita chemicals or dylo/cryo if the chemist supplies you...there was always a reason to use robust like just for ghalaxthistel and keep making 1-3 plants at 50 potency and clip and repeat since you got the vitamins/nutriment to keep the linage up while also getting more seeds.....and to your other question you would have 58 or 30 if it downgrades but i think if you have 44 it doesnt skip the 50 so it would just upgrade to 50 then afterwards 58 if another roll
you clearly arent a main botanist , because else you would just heal the robusted plant to get more clippings via nutri/vita chemicals or dylo/cryo if the chemist supplies you...there was always a reason to use robust like just for ghalaxthistel and keep making 1-3 plants at 50 potency and clip and repeat since you got the vitamins/nutriment to keep the linage up while also getting more seeds.....and to your other question you would have 58 or 30 if it downgrades but i think if you have 44 it doesnt skip the 50 so it would just upgrade to 50 then afterwards 58 if another roll
I'll tell you more - you can use sterile swabs to completely heal your plant, don't even need to use chems. If you have cooperative chemist you can always ask for a bucket of Robust which, when you add roundstart supplies, would be enough for a lot of plants. Also you can always get ressuply kits for your NutriMax. On topic of nutriments/vitamins - 1-2 robusted lemon/cocoa plant would give you more than enough produce to heal your plants. Personally, I mostly use Left-4-Zed with mutagen which, most of the time, mutates default plants potency to 58-72, making robust completely useless anyway. Creating some type of "economy" to Robust is good IMO, also it incentivizes getting "multiple harvests" mutation, so i like this PR. And going back to my original question - it skips 50, you can't get 50 trough mutation, and did you test it or just making a guess?
i heard once aswell with a trick you can use sterile swabs endlessly to crossbreed ...i am not sure if you can reset health each time with swabs this would be new to me , but i guess since it would also negate most stuff from the clipping change ( no efford to heal just swap and done) would get nerved quickly, left4zed takes time and rng to stack the mutation multiplier its pure rng to end up with a 72 straight away i could also end up with a 72 if i just added 5u mutagen and luck , you dont normaly use left4zed just to get more potency...more to stack chemicals mutation rolls and other but as all with botany its just pure rng and gambling... i didnt tested i just spontan guessed i forgot its a - + 14 from potency rolls? got confused why from 50 its just +8 on a proc but afterwards its 72 - 86...so yea your right it would be the second one the 30/58 seed potency and product potency from added robust with 89 wouldt prob be 100 or 86 if it downgrades but not sure there since i cant test it with the robust change
I wonder though - if you mutate plant to 44 potency, add Robust to get 89 "temporary" potency, and mutate potency again. Would it jump to 86/100 potency or 30/58 potency?
The bonus should be mutually independent with any mutations. So if you take a 44 potency plant, add 15u robust, its crops should have the equivalent potency of 89, the "genetics" of the plant still have 44 potency. When the plant mutates, the genetic potency is modified, say it decreases by 14. You would have a plant whose seeds have potency of 30 and whose crops have the potency of 75.
Well after i was told about this a lot and teased...i just wanna leave a comment here to describe what i think of this... Foul-smelling Egg.... Its not a good concept to change the basic robust to be something ..more confusing to the new botanist with temporary effects and some more factors. The argument to change robust to counter the seedless trait somehow doesnt matter , since once you swap 1 time or mutate its gonna be seedless most of the time anyway and i rather prefer to have a none rng way to get a 50 potency plant rather than having to ask the chemist not only for mutagen but also for more robust each time ... if you would make a new chemical in addition to robust maybe something that could increase temporar yield or temporar potency in exchange for production time or something else....there it would have some potentional
Well after i was told about this a lot and teased...i just wanna leave a comment here to describe what i think of this... Foul-smelling Egg.... Its not a good concept to change the basic robust to be something ..more confusing to the new botanist with temporary effects and some more factors. The argument to change robust to counter the seedless trait somehow doesnt matter , since once you swap 1 time or mutate its gonna be seedless most of the time anyway and i rather prefer to have a none rng way to get a 50 potency plant rather than having to ask the chemist not only for mutagen but also for more robust each time ... if you would make a new chemical in addition to robust maybe something that could increase temporar yield or temporar potency in exchange for production time or something else....there it would have some potentional
Making RH harder to understand for newbie botanist is a bad thing, i can agree. But i disagree that making so it doesn't give seedless is pointless. If you are doing mutations using pure mutagen, getting seedless is a relatively rare occurrence. And furthermore, if you are doing mutations, you shouldn't even add RH in the first place since you can always add it as a last step in case you actually need it. Using swabs gives you seedless 70% of the time, and because of it you can try and get interesting plants through mutation without using swabs at all, so you can easily get seeds without having to grow/ask for healing chems. Making this temporary effect into different chem would just make it never used, since you would have to specifically ask for it, as you mentioned as a downside to this change. In my ~300hr in botany I haven't asked for Robust ONCE and i think that's not great. All in all I believe that this change would bring more useful things, than it would take away(PotencyDiv shenanigans can be fixed with simple numbers changing). Also changing it so 1u of RH gives 5 potency points could solve efficiency issue.
if you do mutations you do it AFTER using RH in most cases since you can get extra potency procs to 58 or 72 if your lucky or not , for some stuff you dont need to use robust to mutate for like species mutations thats true ...at the current state its just better to fully ignore seedless condition and just clip and heal with chems or fruits (big cocoa,big apples or pumpkin apples for the extra healing) potency really only matteer at most for medical plants since i rarly seeing someone these days making fruit to sell at cargo or gas plant where potency matters (maybe if the chef needs lot of flour) ...how can you know it wouldnt be requestet the new chemicals? i am pretty sure its just once people know what it does and how usefull it is they would. Just because you never requestet robust once doesnt mean like 80% of the rest doesnt ...seen several people who just farm a lot of normal seeds then robust them and mutate and if it fails they robust again..there are some techniques how you can expand the usage of robust .. this change seems to me more like a hidden nerf than a balance act to prevent you getting early 50 potency medical seed without having more robust to substain it or starting to mutate it even with the extra seeds you can get if its not seedless you mostly are restricted anyway of having more botanist and not having enought trays
I don't think the effect being temporary is strictly more confusing for new players. It's as simple as "fertiliser doesn't affect seeds". It's only really an issue if you're used to the current behaviour. And, yeah, the current values aren't balanced for this approach, so the numbers would need to be tweaked for this to work. I don't think asking chem for robust should be an issue, just gotta balance it so the rate of consumption compared to output is reasonable.
I know this is kinda a casual take, but you can do a reasonable amount of botany work without too many mutations or crossbreeding, I would argue the change (if properly balanced) would make "basic" botany somewhat more approachable as opposed to dealing with making a plant seedless by just adding a reasonable amount of fertiliser.
if you do mutations you do it AFTER using RH in most cases since you can get extra potency procs to 58 or 72 if your lucky or not
If you start with default plant and add mutagen in a controlled manner, i.e. 5u at a time, and potency mutates - you get 44 potency. If you start with robusted plant and add mutagen the same way and potency mutates - you get to 58 potency with guaranteed seedless. 14 point of potency is not worth it IMO. Getting 72 potency from 5u of mutagen is extremely rare(less than 1%) and you might as well use L4Z, mutagen and phalanximine to easily get there from any plant. By adding RH before mutations you basically just skip 1 step in potency ladder and at the same time doom yourself to seedless. Doing mutations while trying not to get seedless is a viable method and this PR would add the option to use RH if you are doing mutations this way.
If you start with default plant and add mutagen in a controlled manner, i.e. 5u at a time, and potency mutates - you get 44 potency. If you start with robusted plant and add mutagen the same way and potency mutates - you get to 58 potency with guaranteed seedless
but doesnt make it seedless anything that goes above 30? and if it hits the seedless trait? Sorry but i said like above you basicly can ignore the seedless condition i can understand that maybe 14 points arent worth in your point of view but in some others it may can...L4Z (- !type:PlantAdjustMutationMod prob: 0.3 amount: 0.4) so 1u has a 30% chance to increase modifier by 0.4 up to 3 for 3 rolls instead of 1 from mutagen from what my understanding is so using L4Z you also gamble with the amount you use from like 5u up to like 25u to reach the full potention i dont know how much L4Z you are using and in combination with other chems like dylo/weedkiller but ...i wouldnt use left4zed just for potency alone in mind but its good to see people using it. To the thing with the It's only really an issue if you're used to the current behaviour. Yes new botanist wont be affect at all because they didnt know it was changed again , but then you make it harder for every botanist that still played befor with relearning and adapting , and also see it from that perspective ..it would be better to make your thing an extra chemicals besides the normal robust so new and old botanist learn some new stuff instead of making it just harder for one side of the coin.After thinking some time about it its an interesting mechanic with temporary stuff itself , its just not good to change robust to that.
L4Z (- !type:PlantAdjustMutationMod prob: 0.3 amount: 0.4) so 1u has a 30% chance to increase modifier by 0.4 up to 3 for 3 rolls instead of 1 from mutagen from what my understanding is so using L4Z you also gamble with the amount you use from like 5u up to like 25u to reach the full potention i dont know how much L4Z you are using and in combination with other chems like dylo/weedkiller but ...i wouldnt use left4zed just for potency alone in mind but its good to see people using it.
If you add 10u of L4Z you would end up with 2.2 MutationMod on average. Then, if you add 25u of mutagen you would get 5 rolls with 11 MutationLevel(2.2*5). This will make it so you would have 5 rolls with 40% chance to change potency(it's ~11% with 5 MutationLevel rolls). All those rolls would most likely bring you to 58/72 potency because those numbers are in the middle of the potency mutation ladder(i.e. if you would roll potency mutation 1000 times you would almost definitely end up on 58/72). This method also gives you a bunch of random gases and chemicals, and seedless as well, sadly, but using L4Z is not the way to avoid getting seedless. But I still believe that there is use in trying not to get seedless. Honestly seedless is kind of a shitty mechanic since you get it for doing anything, there is no way to get rid of it, and it can be relatively easily played around at the same time. Also going above 30 potency only triggers seedless if you are using RH.
...I didn't expect the @ to do that, please excuse me, random person I apparently accidentally mentioned.