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rospogrigio
🚀 Exciting News: Announcing Daikin Europe Developer Portal! 🚀
Dear Developers and Tech Enthusiasts,
We are thrilled to announce the new Daikin Europe Developer Portal. This platform is dedicated to empowering developers like you to unlock the full potential of Daikin air2air and air2water heat pumps, fostering innovation in the world of climate control.
🌐 What is the Developer Portal?
Our Developer Portal is your gateway to a world of endless possibilities with Daikin products. Whether you're an experienced developer, a company exploring opportunities or just starting your coding journey, this platform is your ultimate resource for building and integrating with our technologies. It's a one-stop destination for all things development-related, offering documentation and resources to supercharge your projects.
🛠️ Key Features?
📚 Comprehensive Documentation: Access documentation that provide a deep dive into our APIs, ensuring you have everything you need to get started and excel with your integration.
🚀 Interactive API Explorer: Experiment with our APIs in real time using our interactive API explorer, making the integration process smooth and intuitive.
🔌 Easy integration: Integrate directly onto the Onecta ecosystem with your own units to develop or test your integration. No special hardware required!
🔑 Rate Limitation: To continue offering the Onecta API for free to all our customers a default rate limitation will be implemented.
💼 B2B Business Case Validation: Explore hassle free if your companies business case works together with the Daikin APIs. Get in contact with us when you want to become a partner.
🚧 What's Next?
This is just the beginning! We're committing to expand and enhance our Developer Portal, with new features and resources in the future. Your feedback and suggestions will be invaluable as we evolve the portal to meet the needs of our customers.
:wrench: What changes can already be prepared from your application? Make your current application compatible with the upcoming rate-limitation of 150 calls/day. This will allow everyone to query at least every 15 minutes for temperature changes in their home of all their devices. Temperature variation in the home is often not so fast that a faster update rate is required.
🌟 Ready to Get Started?
We're targeting beginning 2024 for the first access to the Daikin Europe Developer Portal. With later in Q1-2024 the release of self service within the developer portal. Get ready to innovate, build, and make a lasting impact with our Developer Portal. We can't wait to see the incredible solutions you'll create!
Stay tuned for more !
Great news @Daikin-Europe ! Hopefully there will be much more information available from the Daikin devices, especially from the Altherma 3 device I would like to see much more details!
Thank you @Daikin-Europe . I have created a new PR #183 that reduces the polling time to every 15 minutes, as you suggested, for everybody to try. A couple of questions: is there (or will be in the future) the possibility to send commands locally in the LAN instead of passing through the cloud? Many users (including myself) have been asking for this. Thank you for letting us know.
A rate limit of 150 calls is enough for an AC unit, but not for an Altherma, those change much faster, would love to see a higher rate there
As @rospogrigio said, implement local network access! Rate limiting is a no-go if you don't provide it. I bought and my airconditioning systems specifically because they can be controlled via Wifi. This was listed as a feature of the device when i bought it (not as an optional service), you can't take it away after I paid for it. I use Home Assitant together with Zigbee sensors to implement my own thermostats. This is for 5 devices. If querying and setting a state is one API access each, that already requires 10 calls for 5 devices. I don't see why there should be any limit at all.
P.S. I will send some feedback to my installer. Until this is fixed I will not recommend this product to anyone. Good hardware, but if you decide to cripple it ... P.P.S: I also don't see why you should have access to our data
For the Altherma there is a separate HA integration, at some point I want to extend that integration also with support for the AC devices, see https://github.com/jwillemsen/daikin_residential_altherma
@Daikin-Europe Cool, good news, keep us updated. But basically I agree to the discussed topics above about rate limits vs local access.
1 update per 15 minutes seems a bit low ..? My AC goes from 18 to 23 degrees in 15 minutes (small room)..
I can understand limiting to 1 call a minute (instead of 15 seconds) or 150 change operations/day (setting temp/hvac mode), but it's also about showing the actual state in Home Assistant (current/target temperate, hvac mode, on/off), so 15 minutes seems a long time to reflect the current state on your dashboards, which means the dashboard is not really useful.
Thanks for the Developer API though, just hope it doesn't cripple the HA integration, instead of making it better..
To elaborate on my earlier comment. Maybe I am jumping the gun here, but this announcement seems like a crass form of corporate language to me. DAIKIN describing a serious deterioration in thier product as a great new feature for developers. Maybe my concern is unfounded, but there are recent examples of other companies ... this is called enshittification https://doctorow.medium.com/the-enshittification-of-garage-door-openers-reveals-a-vast-and-deadly-rot-eed85da5b0ba
As for the corporate speak: you are not making sure you are able to continue this free service. This is not a free service. As customers, we already paid for this feature, so it is not free. I paid for a device, I didn't subscribe to a service. In my case, I paid a 5 digit EUR sum for DAIKIN devices.
There is no technical reason for denying local access. This is proven by my Comfora unit with the older WIFI modules (if I had known I would only have installed the cheaper Comfora units and not the more expensive, newer units). Local access works well, no cloud needed (so no cost for DAIKIN to run servers for a "free" cloud service most customers don't want). The only reason to make cloud mandatory is to grab data and lock us into using their apps. The B2B stuff in combination with the rate limiting suggests to me that any access with more than 15 min interval access will either be through Onecta or some subscription based model. So, we're being dis-owned of our devices for which we paid! I would hope DAIKINs business model is about selling good hardware, not about dealing/collecting in data and selling subscriptions to their API. I would love it if @Daikin-Europe proves my suspicions wrong and enables local access.
Since my last comment, I found this https://github.com/revk/ESP32-Faikin and ordered several of the pre-assembled PCBs. I fear this will be the only way to truely own the DAIKIN devices that I paid for. But again, please prove me wrong @Daikin-Europe .
To all the others who left ❤️ emojis, please re-read the announcement carefully, with the garage door enshittification in mind and your translator for corporate speak turned to "on". There needs to be massive push-back against @Daikin-Europe disowning its customers.
Yes @VolkerH , I see a common trend with several other IOT vendors about this, that set up everything to be cloud-oriented, and then they realize how high is the cost for them to maintain the cloud connection, and consequently start cutting off the service. My Xiaomi vacuum cleaner, for example, now no longer shows the real time map if you make too many requests, and so we users needed so setup a hack within HA in order to reduce the calls and stay within the rate limitation. I really don't understand this approach, as you say local access is faster and more secure. Cloud connection is nice to have as an add-on, but shouldn't be the only way to interact with the device on the network. Just my 2 cents, let's wait and check wheter @Daikin-Europe want to reply something.
I guess @Daikin-Europe will never reply here. Just dropped the "bad news PR".
BTW: the same also happened to the VW API for their electric cars. And there even is an annual subscription fee for "connected services".
I am/was thinking about purchasing an Altherma. I am now reconsidering. Albeit is is becoming really hard to own any hardware I paid for. General trend.
Yes @VolkerH , I see a common trend with several other IOT vendors about this, that set up everything to be cloud-oriented, and then they realize how high is the cost for them to maintain the cloud connection, and consequently start cutting off the service. My Xiaomi vacuum cleaner, for example, now no longer shows the real time map if you make too many requests, and so we users needed so setup a hack within HA in order to reduce the calls and stay within the rate limitation. I really don't understand this approach, as you say local access is faster and more secure. Cloud connection is nice to have as an add-on, but shouldn't be the only way to interact with the device on the network. Just my 2 cents, let's wait and check wheter @Daikin-Europe want to reply something.
The only solution to all of these issues is to go with an alternative (open source) firmware, e.g. Faikin for Daikin ACs and valetudo for vacuum cleaners. Leave their cloud and never look back. Maybe this will make them sane again once enough customers stop using/buying their products.
No Faikin for FTXM71WVMA with wifi controller BRP084C44. Restricting API call frequency to 15m shows that the whole ‘cloud only’ drive was marketing not engineering or customer based at Daikin. Marketing people should only be in meetings at a ratio of 1 in 5. There should never be rooms with only marketing people in them. So how does the cloud-centric control go when Optus falls flat during a 40c heatwave?
The more interesting question from my perspective is how that should work withthe Onecta App? All the non tech users will use the app whenever they want and expect current data ... So the App-API will then maybe not have such rate limits (because honestly else normal users will make big noise) , but an "open API" will have? This also makes not that much sense ...
The more interesting question from my perspective is how that should work withthe Onecta App? All the non tech users will use the app whenever they want and expect current data ... So the App-API will then maybe not have such rate limits (because honestly else normal users will make big noise) , but an "open API" will have? This also makes not that much sense ...
I believe the app will be allowed to perform more frequent polling, or possibly it would update -let's say- every 5 minutes and I highly doubt that anyone would notice. Still would be nice from @Daikin-Europe to have some answers to all the questions asked in the thread so far... but they just threw the stone and hid their hand, as we say in Italy 😉
If polling for dashboard status updates is rate-limited to the imposed maximum of 150 calls/day, that doesn't seem to leave sufficient 'bandwidth' for actual commands? I want to use automations to operate the A/C under my own scheduling and these additional calls would be on top of those performing the 15m polling. And how does this all work out when multiple A/C units are being polled?
If all the units are connected to the same account, with each polling you get the data from all the units so don't worry for this. But you do are right when you say that each command you send is a call that goes on top of the polling commands.
each command you send is a call that goes on top of the polling commands
In which case it would definitely appear that we need a way of setting the polling rate as has been suggested. Personally I think I will be removing the cards from the dashboard as such stale information is offensive.
I also wonder if the 'too frequent' polling is what is affecting my use of the Onecta app to control the A/Cs? I don't know if it's a general thing but the response time is lousy when using the app - very often a new setting does nothing and then shortly after the displayed new setting reverts to how the device was. A frequent culprit is "Powerful mode" which needs several goes at selecting it before it engages.
I also wonder if the 'too frequent' polling is what is affecting my use of the Onecta app to control the A/Cs? I don't know if it's a general thing but the response time is lousy when using the app - very often a new setting does nothing and then shortly after the displayed new setting reverts to how the device was. A frequent culprit is "Powerful mode" which needs several goes at selecting it before it engages.
I noticed that problem as well. I "fixed" it by increasing the polling time to 90 seconds inside the current code. I think the value is definined in init.
I noticed that problem as well. I "fixed" it by increasing the polling time to 90 seconds inside the current code. I think the value is definined in init.
So this lends support to having a user-adjustable polling time. At the moment, this integration would appear to be interfering with my domestic heating system.
Can you be a bit more specific about the whereabouts of the polling time you made an edit to? I searched the repo but could only find TIMEOUT = 60 in custom_components/daikin_residential/const.py or maybe this is it in__init__.py: MIN_TIME_BETWEEN_UPDATES = datetime.timedelta(seconds=15)
The rate limits seem substantially low, and if this is a problem removing local API access seems like you're intentionally removing a great number of use cases. Let me explain my use case (via Home Assistant):
- Every minute, my solar power inverter tells me how much power was generated vs consumed
- If I have >1,000W of energy being exported, I set the thermostat 4º lower than the target
- If I have <1,000W of energy being exported, I set the thermostat to the target
This means I can pre-chill my house while the sun is shining to give us good comfort with no or low energy usage in the evening, while accounting for variable solar input and variable other loads. When the dishwasher is running its heater, the air con temperature is allowed to warm up a bit.
Does these rate limits mean that someone can start the AC from Onecta or IR and Home Assistant will only know after 15 minutes?
That is shit @Daikin-Europe .
Where is the local control we wanted for months that do not suppose a cost for your cloud?
I have to come back on my previous comment, a rate of 1 times per minute still looks slow when the AC is controlled through onecta and monitored through HA, a rate of 1 times per 10 minutes is really too slow
IMO It's all a bit of an unpleasant mess now. I suspect the choice of rate limiting to 50/day has been set by them to cover half-hourly dynamic energy pricing. It's not been chosen with a view to real time monitoring but for slow 'smart grid' applications. Ultimately this is my goal so I can live without the 'nice to have' dashboard integration. But I'll be sad to have to remove it. And it definitely rules out fine-grained adaptive solar PV integration.
My family wouldn't appreciate losing control using the Onecta app on their smartphones - otherwise the brilliant Faikin would be my go-to solution.
I currently have polling from HA set to every 5 minutes and it's still getting the 288 calls a day through OK. The Onecta app is still a bit laggy but I don't feel it's any worse than before I started using this integration.
My family wouldn't appreciate losing control using the Onecta app on their smartphones - otherwise the brilliant Faikin would be my go-to solution.
Depending of the availability of the S21 port, I think you can use both? Eg. the Perfera has built-in Wifi for Onecta, so adding Faikin would allow both Onecta and direct Faikin control I think?
Depending of the availability of the S21 port, I think you can use both?
Possibly, - I know there's a modbus adaptor available for most indoor units and I had the impression both could co-exist.
Commenting just to note that, while is honourable that Daikin is trying to acommodate some "extreme cases", as others already said that feels way underwhelming. Just for reference, I have my units at home, I do have a HA at home, today they have a downtime from 8am to 4pm (or something like that, don't quote me), while that downtime I CANNOT control my units.
I am sorry this is not acceptable, sadly after expending a good amount of money for the WIFI module, I see myself looking for fakin and the likes.
Yeah, me too, can't control my units right now for maintenance reasons. When is the local control coming @Daikin-Europe ?
It's absolutely absurd that scheduled maintenance takes 8+ hours. An hour I could understand, but this is nuts.
At least I can use the MMI.
Maybe they neeed 8h to implement the rate limit ?
5 Units. Spot the old model that still supports local control:
In case @Daikin-Europe are still monitoring this issue, here is some suggested reading from the FTC (in the US, but maybe the EU thinks along similar lines and introduces some regulatoin with big fines): https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2016/07/what-happens-when-sun-sets-smart-product