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Your definition of connectedness

Open pozorvlak opened this issue 13 years ago • 8 comments

... is AFAICT fine, but can be simplified.

Suppose X' != X. Then there exists some x which is in X' but not in X. Since {X,Y} is a partition of S, x must be in Y. Since Y is a subset of Y', x must be in Y'. So x is in the intersection of X' and Y'. But we have declared that X' and Y' are disjoint, so we have a contradiction. So X' = X. Similarly, Y' = Y.

Hence, a set S is disconnected iff there exist disjoint nonempty open sets X and Y whose union is S. Which is the definition I was taught :-)

pozorvlak avatar Nov 15 '10 21:11 pozorvlak

BTW, the reason I didn't just submit a patch is because it looked like you were making a pedagogical point with your more complex definition.

pozorvlak avatar Nov 15 '10 21:11 pozorvlak

Aren't you thinking of the definition of a connected space, whereas mjd is describing the circumstances under which a set of points is connected (as a space) under the subspace topology?

robinhouston avatar Nov 16 '10 01:11 robinhouston

In the latter case, the definition's wrong: X' and Y' don't need to be disjoint, only their intersections with the subspace do. And there's no mention of a larger space into which S is embedded.

pozorvlak avatar Nov 16 '10 09:11 pozorvlak

That definition is one of the current serious problems with the manuscript. There are some tricky issues there.

A subset S of a space X is connected if the space S is connected in the induced topology. But the induced topology considers intersection of open sets with S. The induced open sets might be disjoin even though the original open sets aren't.

David Radcliffe pointed out the following useful example: Let Z be the integers under the finite-complement topology. Then S = {1, 2} is disconnected. But there is no separation X, Y of S for which the two parts are disjoint.

mjdominus avatar Nov 16 '10 19:11 mjdominus

Yes, I realised this after seeing pozorvlak's last comment. Another example would be something like R + {} with open sets 1) the empty set, and 2) X union {}, where X \subseteq R is open in R. In that example the intersection of two non-empty open sets is always non-empty, and yet it has disconnected subsets (any disconnected subset of R).

But isn't there a straightforward fix? Just remove the requirement that X and Y be disjoint, and ask instead that X be disjoint from Y' and Y from X'.

That does perhaps create the problem that, if you wanted to explain why this funny-looking definition is needed, you would need to relax your “no examples bar R^n” policy…

robinhouston avatar Nov 16 '10 21:11 robinhouston

Here's the thing: you haven't introduced the subspace topology at this point. In fact, I can't find it anywhere in the document. This, IMHO, is a good idea: the subspace topology is one of those definitions that sounds sensible but slightly arbitrary until you know enough category theory to see why it's the Right Thing. So I think you should just talk about entire spaces being connected or disconnected. You could give the definition as it currently is, reinforcing the "separated by disjoint open sets" idea, and leave the simplification as an exercise. I'll submit a patch for consideration...

pozorvlak avatar Nov 16 '10 22:11 pozorvlak

On second thoughts, "it's the unique topology that makes the inclusion map continuous" doesn't require much sophistication, though it's a perspective that's more likely to occur to someone steeped in the categorical approach.

pozorvlak avatar Nov 17 '10 08:11 pozorvlak

Robin's suggestion was the definition I learned in school, but I had hoped to cut corners or to fudge it somehow. But as we see, that didn't work.

I can't define connectedness Robin's way until after I've discussed closures. I don't want to introduce the subspace topology (at all) and I can't discuss it in terms of continuous maps until after I discuss continuous maps.

I put connectedness up front because I thought it was an intuitively clear property (unlike, say, compactness) with a straightforward definition. I was wrong about the latter. So perhaps the thing to do is to move connectedness later and do interiors and closures first.

mjdominus avatar Nov 17 '10 14:11 mjdominus