KataGo
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lightvector
Ladder strategy
With the Black M-12, Black's aim is to make either ladder successful.The best white move KataGo shows here is White 1 in the screenshot below. It seems that KataGo thinks that this movement prevents White from both ladders ...
Black decided that there was no effective means in this place and switched to M-18 and another place.
However, by following the steps shown in the screenshot below, Black can defeat White 1's intentions and make great profits.I searched about 50,000 visits with the best KataGo 40B, but it seems difficult to find this black clever procedure.
I intended to upload the SGF, but it seems I forgot ... https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e6TOrQpD7_NE1Ij-aZLEO40uLLQUFG5F/view?usp=sharing
after B plays 14, white would not play 15. The left side of B already in a broken shape, which is not good for B. So, IMO, Katago 40B did make the right choice by not playing here
This change chart is posted as it is explained by a professional Go player on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXxtfq69JBg Yes, the changes up to Black 16 don't seem to be the best on both sides. This change chart is meant to clearly explain the success of at least one of the ladders for those who are not yet very high in Go, and not all seem to be the best move. The problem this time around is that it's difficult for KataGo to find the best move for Black after White K-13, but what you're pointing out is purely in the sense of Go strategy. It's interesting.
On my using 60b network, KataGo found it in a few seconds.
However, the settings have been changed significantly from the default.
The ongoing distributed training does not explore deeply enough to obtain correct answers at the NN level.
It is like using scissors.
@michito744 Even in my environment, KataGo has been able to discover L-7 with very little analysis. It is this next black move that is difficult to find. In my environment, the N-1 Nidanbane is a blue spot, but it seems difficult to find the J-9, which should probably be the correct answer.
Take a closer look at the “diagram on the left”. It accurately predicts the both ladders and J-9, and L-6.
I wasn't looking at the subboard. Black looks like he's finding a good procedure.
This result is obtained in the 6k total searches range, of which the first place candidate is less than 4k searches.
It is a secret original setting:-)
This is exactly the situation I pointed out in #654.
@lightvector There are a rotten number of events similar to those pointed out by hope366 here.
The waste of resources is too lot to conduct a large amount of training in the current default setting.
@michito744 - If you have settings that are better than the default settings, would you be willing to share them?
@lightvector I will help if I can, but the reality is that different versions of the network will behave differently, even with the same configuration.
I have several difficult test cases and in each I tweak until I get the right solution. Different environments may behave differently, so a different approach may be necessary.
@michito744 You are using the software provided free of charge (KataGo or Lizzie). So, if you can use them to get useful information to enhance KataGo, isn't it a good idea to at least tell the creators of KataGo?
Of course you are right.
I was just stating the caveat that using it without any thought will not work.
Then there are a large number of decimals in the configuration file that are, for all intents and purposes, meaningless. I can't answer any questions or complaints about its contents, because it just happens to work well in the overall balance for a particular version.
It's not about the decimal point, it's that you don't want to tell anyone what you've struggled to find. You don't seem to have the idea of giving back to the people who provided KataGo and Lizzie with great effort and time ...
@hope366 If I use the settings for kata1-b60c320-s6093801984-d2892798921 as is for kata1-b60c320-s6119310080-d2899227642, it does not work as expected at all.
Irresponsibly handing them over will not help the project in any way.
I don't know what "irresponsible" is. Specific settings for specific nets have made it possible to do things that are usually difficult. All you have to do is tell that fact.
I'm not comfortable being accused by people who don't understand at all, so I'm just going to upload it for now.
Configuration for kata1-b60c320-s6093801984-d2892798921 KataGo_gtp_TensorRT_1_11_0_60x320_dummy_11.txt
Configuration for kata1-b60c320-s6119310080-d2899227642 KataGo_gtp_TensorRT_1_11_0_60x320_dummy_12.txt
Changed due to upload extension restrictions. Please change to ".cfg".
If this configuration file does not work correctly, it is due to differences in your environment. Please do something about it yourself.
Thank you for publishing the configuration file. Don't get me wrong, I may not know anything, but I didn't blame you. Shouldn't we stop secrecy? I just made a suggestion.
I looked at your customized config file and found that WRN and cpuct related numbers were distinguished in surprisingly fine increments. Memory usage has also increased significantly. I can't imagine why this was possible. For example, the numerical value of cpuct is the same up to about 13 digits after the decimal point, and it fluctuates little by little after that. Why is this possible?
@hope366
There is no particular meaning.
Configuration file for kata1-b60c320-s6144619008-d2905897817 KataGo_gtp_TensorRT_1_11_0_60x320_dummy_13.txt
Actual operation image
I'm surprised that it is specified in detail with 13 digits or more after the decimal point, and I can't imagine why it can be specified in that part. If you try them in order without thinking about anything, it will take an enormous amount of time.
@lightvector Have you seen the configuration file uploaded by michito744? There are amazingly detailed settings for WRN, cpuct, FPU and more. It is wonderful that we have succeeded in finding the correct movement for both ladders in this theme diagram with only about 6000 searches. Since the memory usage has been greatly increased, I think that this has an effect, of course ... Is it possible that the config file he uploaded will give you some hints on how KataGo can make a big leap forward?
Sorry, KataGo_gtp_TensorRT_1_11_0_60x320_dummy_13.txt was not very good.
@michito744 According to the screenshot you pasted a while ago, after around 6000 searches, Black has found good movements associated with both ladders. In my environment, a search of about 10 to 15k may show similar changes, but when it is not good, even tens of thousands of searches will not work. Can black find good movements within 10k almost every time in your environment?
Here's a convenient SGF
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]KM[6.5]SZ[19]RU[Japanese]
;B[pp];W[dd];B[dp];W[pd];B[qc];W[qd];B[pc];W[od];B[nb];W[qq];B[qp];W[pq];B[nq];W[oq];B[op];W[nr];B[qh];W[oh]
;B[pj];W[rc];B[rb];W[ob];B[rd];W[oc];B[kc];W[ic];B[ke];W[kg];B[mf];W[md];B[lh];W[oj];B[re];W[of];B[mc];W[ld]
;B[kd];W[pk];B[hd];W[qf];B[ok];W[qj];B[pi];W[oi];B[fc];W[rf];B[qk];W[pl];B[ql];W[qi];B[pm];W[ol];B[om];W[nl]
;B[ph];W[rh];B[rk];W[rj];B[sj];W[ri];B[cf];W[fd];B[gd];W[ec];B[fe];W[ed];B[fb];W[df];B[dg];W[ff];B[be];W[bd]
;B[eb];W[eg];B[cd];W[cc];B[ce];W[dh];B[cg];W[ge];B[he];W[ee];B[db];W[ch];B[eh];W[fh];B[ei];W[dj];B[fi];W[gh]
;B[gi];W[cl];B[hh];W[hg];B[hf];W[gg];B[de];W[ef];B[bc];W[hi];B[ih];W[ig];B[hj];W[ii];B[jh];W[kh];B[ji];W[ij]
;B[ml];W[km];B[ik];W[jj]TR[nk]C[KataGo struggles to see the triangled move.]
(;B[nk];W[nm];B[nn];W[mm];B[lm];W[mn];B[kj];W[jk];B[jl];W[kk];B[lk];W[kl];B[kn];W[ki];B[mo])
(;B[ki]))
