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Relicensing to MIT?

Open davazp opened this issue 2 years ago • 50 comments

We are considering changing the license of JSCL from GPL3 to MIT.

To do so, we need contributors of significant parts of JSCL to agree.

If you are in this list, please comment in this thread telling us if you agree or not.

I apology for the ping if you are not interested.

Some contributions are small enough that we won't need permission. Below follows the contributions by author according to git-quick-stats.

Even if you aren't a contributor, you can react with +1 or -1 to this issue to express your thoughts on the change.

Approve

Does NOT approve

Unknown

        Andrea Griffini <[email protected]>:
          insertions:    718    (0%)
          deletions:     259    (0%)
          files:         33     (1%)
          commits:       18     (1%)
          lines changed: 977    (0%)
          first commit:  Tue Apr 30 08:54:21 2013 +0200
          last commit:   Mon May 6 08:56:18 2013 +0200

         Spenser Truex <[email protected]>:
          insertions:    1      (0%)
          deletions:     1      (0%)
          files:         1      (0%)
          commits:       1      (0%)
          lines changed: 2      (0%)
          first commit:  Mon Jul 16 10:23:11 2018 -0700
          last commit:   Mon Jul 16 10:23:11 2018 -0700

         Robert Smith <[email protected]>:
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          commits:       1      (0%)
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          first commit:  Sat Apr 27 15:20:54 2013 -0700
          last commit:   Sat Apr 27 15:20:54 2013 -0700

         Nikodemus Siivola <[email protected]>:
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          deletions:     13     (0%)
          files:         9      (0%)
          commits:       7      (0%)
          lines changed: 87     (0%)
          first commit:  Sun Apr 28 16:37:03 2013 +0300
          last commit:   Sun Apr 28 16:41:48 2013 +0300

         vlad-km <[email protected]>:
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          files:         327    (13%)
          commits:       253    (15%)
          lines changed: 16117  (4%)
          first commit:  Sun Feb 11 16:30:41 2018 +0300
          last commit:   Sat Sep 10 15:38:24 2022 +0300

         Bill St. Clair <[email protected]>:
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          deletions:     7      (0%)
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          commits:       1      (0%)
          lines changed: 11     (0%)
          first commit:  Mon Jul 14 16:05:20 2014 -0400
          last commit:   Mon Jul 14 16:05:20 2014 -0400

         cxxxr <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Mon Aug 28 08:27:56 2017 +0900
          last commit:   Sun Oct 14 11:54:30 2018 +0900

         Samuel Chase <[email protected]>:
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          lines changed: 69     (0%)
          first commit:  Mon May 13 00:55:30 2013 +0530
          last commit:   Thu May 16 22:18:59 2013 +0530

         chuchana <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Wed May 11 14:47:45 2016 +0200
          last commit:   Wed May 11 14:47:45 2016 +0200

         Fernando Borretti <[email protected]>:
          insertions:    83     (0%)
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          commits:       3      (0%)
          lines changed: 153    (0%)
          first commit:  Fri Apr 17 19:03:02 2015 -0300
          last commit:   Sun Apr 19 12:54:25 2015 -0300

         Henry Irvine <[email protected]>:
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          commits:       1      (0%)
          lines changed: 8      (0%)
          first commit:  Mon May 6 01:55:59 2013 +0900
          last commit:   Mon May 6 01:55:59 2013 +0900

         Yoteichi <[email protected]>:
          insertions:    4      (0%)
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          first commit:  Wed Jan 2 05:07:38 2019 +0900
          last commit:   Wed Jan 2 05:38:13 2019 +0900

         Olof-Joachim Frahm <[email protected]>:
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         Michael Grünewald <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Wed Oct 4 23:22:51 2017 +0200
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         David Vázquez <[email protected]>:
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          last commit:   Wed Sep 21 08:07:44 2022 +0200

         Helmut Kian <[email protected]>:
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         Mihai Bazon <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Sat Jan 5 11:56:28 2013 +0200
          last commit:   Sat Oct 21 16:09:15 2017 +0300

         Ken Harris <[email protected]>:
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          files:         51     (2%)
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          first commit:  Sat May 4 23:32:00 2013 -0700
          last commit:   Wed Jun 19 11:44:44 2013 -0700

         pnathan <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Tue May 7 22:31:42 2013 -0700
          last commit:   Sun Feb 16 23:16:05 2014 -0800

         Brit Butler <[email protected]>:
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         Daniel Nagy <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Wed Sep 29 13:30:30 2021 +0200
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         maxwellhansen <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Thu Apr 25 22:37:09 2013 -0700
          last commit:   Thu Apr 25 22:37:09 2013 -0700

         Bruce-Robert Fenn Pocock <[email protected]>:
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          deletions:     189    (0%)
          files:         11     (0%)
          commits:       10     (1%)
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          last commit:   Fri Aug 12 16:13:01 2016 -0400

         Kasper Gałkowski <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Mon Mar 28 16:59:46 2022 +0200
          last commit:   Mon Mar 28 16:59:46 2022 +0200

         Alejandro Zamora Fonseca <[email protected]>:
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          deletions:     0      (0%)
          files:         2      (0%)
          commits:       1      (0%)
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          first commit:  Mon Jun 19 05:21:20 2017 -0300
          last commit:   Mon Jun 19 05:21:20 2017 -0300

         jnjcc <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Sun Jul 6 16:28:55 2014 +1200
          last commit:   Thu Jul 31 20:17:33 2014 +1200

         Diogo Franco <[email protected]>:
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          lines changed: 100    (0%)
          first commit:  Tue Apr 5 00:40:54 2016 +0100
          last commit:   Mon Apr 11 12:26:29 2016 +0100

         Raimon Grau <[email protected]>:
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          commits:       32     (2%)
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          first commit:  Tue Dec 11 23:56:15 2012 +0100
          last commit:   Thu May 2 21:39:35 2013 +0200

         ErmineII <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Thu Sep 17 18:55:30 2020 -0400
          last commit:   Thu Sep 17 18:55:30 2020 -0400

         rayslava <[email protected]>:
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          first commit:  Sat Jan 19 18:45:11 2013 +0400
          last commit:   Tue Apr 21 19:23:54 2015 +0300

         Alfredo Beaumont <[email protected]>:
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          deletions:     120    (0%)
          files:         52     (2%)
          commits:       35     (2%)
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          first commit:  Tue Apr 23 16:14:32 2013 +0200
          last commit:   Mon Jun 3 11:38:56 2013 +0200

         Vyacheslav Barinov <[email protected]>:
          insertions:    5      (0%)
          deletions:     5      (0%)
          files:         1      (0%)
          commits:       1      (0%)
          lines changed: 10     (0%)
          first commit:  Fri Aug 28 15:34:50 2015 +0300
          last commit:   Fri Aug 28 15:34:50 2015 +0300

         Owen Rodley <[email protected]>:
          insertions:    967    (0%)
          deletions:     360    (0%)
          files:         114    (5%)
          commits:       64     (4%)
          lines changed: 1327   (0%)
          first commit:  Sat Apr 27 00:16:42 2013 +1200
          last commit:   Fri Jan 8 20:27:31 2016 +1100

         Javier Olaechea <[email protected]>:
          insertions:    298    (0%)
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          files:         34     (1%)
          commits:       26     (2%)
          lines changed: 496    (0%)
          first commit:  Mon Dec 21 15:48:19 2015 -0500
          last commit:   Mon Apr 11 03:21:26 2016 -0500

         Henry Steere <[email protected]>:
          insertions:    56     (0%)
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          files:         7      (0%)
          commits:       5      (0%)
          lines changed: 97     (0%)
          first commit:  Thu May 3 21:08:12 2018 +0200
          last commit:   Wed May 9 07:33:47 2018 +0200

davazp avatar Sep 21 '22 06:09 davazp

I don't believe I'm a significant contributor, but I agree with changing to MIT-licence.

Cheers,

  • Nikodemus Siivola

ke 21. syysk. 2022 klo 9.30 David Vázquez Púa @.***> kirjoitti:

We are considering changing the license of JSCL from GPL3 to MIT.

To do so, we need contributors of significant parts of JSCL to agree.

If you are in this list, please comment in this thread telling us if you agree or not.

I apology for the ping if you are not interested. Additionally, some contributions are small enough that we won't need permission.

Below follows the contributions by author according to git-quick-stats https://github.com/arzzen/git-quick-stats.

  • Andrea Griffini @.*** @6502 https://github.com/6502

  • Spenser Truex @.*** @equwal https://github.com/equwal

  • Robert Smith @.*** @stylewarning https://github.com/stylewarning

  • Nikodemus Siivola @.*** @nikodemus https://github.com/nikodemus

  • vlad-km @.*** @vlad-km https://github.com/vlad-km

  • Bill St. Clair @.*** @billstclair https://github.com/billstclair

  • cxxxr @.*** @cxxxr https://github.com/cxxxr

  • Samuel Chase @.*** @samebchase https://github.com/samebchase

  • chuchana @.*** @chuchana https://github.com/chuchana

  • Fernando Borretti @.*** @eudoxia0 https://github.com/eudoxia0

  • Henry Irvine @.*** @henryirvine https://github.com/henryirvine

  • Yoteichi @.*** @plonk https://github.com/plonk

  • Olof-Joachim Frahm @.*** @Ferada https://github.com/Ferada

  • Michael Grünewald @.*** @foretspaisibles https://github.com/foretspaisibles

  • David Vázquez @.*** @davazp https://github.com/davazp

  • Helmut Kian @.*** (no github?)

  • Mihai Bazon @.*** @mishoo https://github.com/mishoo

  • Ken Harris @.*** @kengruven https://github.com/kengruven

  • pnathan @.*** @pnathan https://github.com/pnathan

  • Brit Butler @.*** @kingcons https://github.com/kingcons

  • Daniel Nagy @.*** @nagy https://github.com/nagy

  • maxwellhansen @.*** @maxwellhansen https://github.com/maxwellhansen

  • Bruce-Robert Fenn Pocock @.*** @brpocock https://github.com/brpocock

  • Kasper Gałkowski @.*** @Uthar https://github.com/Uthar

  • Alejandro Zamora Fonseca @.*** @alejandrozf https://github.com/alejandrozf

  • jnjcc @.*** @jnjcc https://github.com/jnjcc

  • Diogo Franco @.*** @diogoalexandrefranco https://github.com/diogoalexandrefranco

  • Raimon Grau @.*** @kidd https://github.com/kidd

  • ErmineII @.*** @ErmineII https://github.com/ErmineII

  • rayslava @.*** @rayslava https://github.com/rayslava

  • Alfredo Beaumont @.*** @abeaumont https://github.com/abeaumont

  • Vyacheslav Barinov @.*** (no github?)

  • Owen Rodley @.*** @orodley https://github.com/orodley

  • Javier Olaechea @.*** @PuercoPop https://github.com/PuercoPop

  • Henry Steere @.*** @HenryS1 https://github.com/HenryS1

    Andrea Griffini @.***>:

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     lines changed: 977    (0%)
    
     first commit:  Tue Apr 30 08:54:21 2013 +0200
    
     last commit:   Mon May 6 08:56:18 2013 +0200
    
    
    
    Spenser Truex ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Mon Jul 16 10:23:11 2018 -0700
    
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    Robert Smith ***@***.***>:
    
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    Nikodemus Siivola ***@***.***>:
    
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    vlad-km ***@***.***>:
    
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    Bill St. Clair ***@***.***>:
    
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    cxxxr ***@***.***>:
    
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    Samuel Chase ***@***.***>:
    
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    chuchana ***@***.***>:
    
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     last commit:   Wed May 11 14:47:45 2016 +0200
    
    
    
    Fernando Borretti ***@***.***>:
    
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    Henry Irvine ***@***.***>:
    
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    Yoteichi ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Wed Jan 2 05:07:38 2019 +0900
    
     last commit:   Wed Jan 2 05:38:13 2019 +0900
    
    
    
    Olof-Joachim Frahm ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Sat May 18 00:38:58 2013 +0200
    
     last commit:   Tue Oct 15 22:41:56 2013 +0200
    
    
    
    Michael Grünewald ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Wed Oct 4 23:22:51 2017 +0200
    
     last commit:   Sat Nov 18 12:44:35 2017 +0100
    
    
    
    David Vázquez ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Fri Dec 14 01:18:26 2012 +0000
    
     last commit:   Wed Sep 21 08:07:44 2022 +0200
    
    
    
    Helmut Kian ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Tue Jun 16 12:19:12 2015 -0700
    
     last commit:   Wed Jun 17 10:57:53 2015 -0700
    
    
    
    Mihai Bazon ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Sat Jan 5 11:56:28 2013 +0200
    
     last commit:   Sat Oct 21 16:09:15 2017 +0300
    
    
    
    Ken Harris ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Sat May 4 23:32:00 2013 -0700
    
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    pnathan ***@***.***>:
    
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     last commit:   Sun Feb 16 23:16:05 2014 -0800
    
    
    
    Brit Butler ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Thu May 9 09:44:40 2013 -0400
    
     last commit:   Thu May 9 09:44:40 2013 -0400
    
    
    
    Daniel Nagy ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Wed Sep 29 13:30:30 2021 +0200
    
     last commit:   Mon Aug 22 23:11:42 2022 +0200
    
    
    
    maxwellhansen ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Thu Apr 25 22:37:09 2013 -0700
    
     last commit:   Thu Apr 25 22:37:09 2013 -0700
    
    
    
    Bruce-Robert Fenn Pocock ***@***.***>:
    
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     first commit:  Sat Jul 30 01:52:10 2016 -0400
    
     last commit:   Fri Aug 12 16:13:01 2016 -0400
    
    
    
    Kasper Gałkowski ***@***.***>:
    
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— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl/issues/453, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AABFMVA7LZO6VQIWCUDCDBLV7KTPFANCNFSM6AAAAAAQRXOGZY . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

nikodemus avatar Sep 21 '22 06:09 nikodemus

I'm pretty sure you don't need my approval for the change, but just in case: you have it.

chuchana avatar Sep 21 '22 06:09 chuchana

Okay, if you need an approval, I agree to the license change.

And [email protected] is also me, apparently I've performed commit from office without proper git config :)

rayslava avatar Sep 21 '22 06:09 rayslava

You have my approval if you need it.

HenryS1 avatar Sep 21 '22 07:09 HenryS1

I agree with changing to MIT-license

vlad-km avatar Sep 21 '22 07:09 vlad-km

Agree.

mishoo avatar Sep 21 '22 07:09 mishoo

Fine by me.

orodley avatar Sep 21 '22 08:09 orodley

I consider my contributions in this project to be minuscule enough that I wont be holding anybody back, so consider my acceptance to be given.

But I also want to mention, that I think this is a bad idea. If a corporation can use this project to create profit, it should contribute something back to the project. A MIT license would allow a corporation to just take this project with nothing more than a mere mention.

If they disagree with the GPL3 because they vehemently do not want to release their source code, nothing prevents them from asking @davazp for an individual license.

So I think the GPL3 strengthens the interests of this project, where a MIT license would weaken it. But again, I agree to any outcome of this.

nagy avatar Sep 21 '22 08:09 nagy

What @nagy said; I agree to the change though if the decision goes that way.

Ferada avatar Sep 21 '22 09:09 Ferada

Just want to leave my (lack of) opinion here as well. I don't mind GPLv3 vs MIT, I agree with @nagy's argument, but I think it's unlikely to happen. And even if I don't think there is a reason to reject it because it's GPLv3 (you can make your app on it, just contribute changes to jscl itself), it seems many people feel that way.

However I have been asked a few timesthis already, so it that makes more people likely to use and contribute to the project, I welcome the change.

davazp avatar Sep 21 '22 09:09 davazp

GPLv3 usage has one not-so-obvious consequence as well: it forbids tivoization explicitly, but this point leads to requirement of access to file system and this may become a blocker sometimes.

For example in our company we use GPLv2 code, we open all the source, and we upstream useful changes, but as for GPLv3 code, the license requires to allow filesystem access (e.g. to allow library replacement) and when we only have ROM with firmware we can't do that, so all the GPLv3-licensed code is just discarded unconditionally.

There were some cases when I'd be happy to work on open source projects during my paid hours, but GPLv3 prevented that. Not sure how common this situation is, though.

rayslava avatar Sep 21 '22 10:09 rayslava

Agree.

abeaumont avatar Sep 21 '22 10:09 abeaumont

Tiny contribution. Happy with license change. Use MIT for all of my own open source projects.

Bill St. Clair

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 6:32 AM Alfredo Beaumont @.***> wrote:

Agree.

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billstclair avatar Sep 21 '22 11:09 billstclair

Agree

alejandrozf avatar Sep 21 '22 11:09 alejandrozf

Agree and support the change!

foretspaisibles avatar Sep 21 '22 12:09 foretspaisibles

I don't agree with GPL3->MIT. In my "vast" contribution. ;)

I don't consider my work to be appropriate for use without consideration, and the consideration I select for public projects (when I have the choice) is having the source be long-term available to all users.

(Personally, I always start with AGPL3).

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022, 5:26 AM Michaël Le Barbier @.***> wrote:

Agree and support the change!

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl/issues/453#issuecomment-1253635652, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAFZZYBMRGS53ZWTZAMDDBTV7L5HPANCNFSM6AAAAAAQRXOGZY . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

pnathan avatar Sep 21 '22 14:09 pnathan

I agree. 👍

kingcons avatar Sep 21 '22 14:09 kingcons

+1

stylewarning avatar Sep 21 '22 18:09 stylewarning

I agree.

Andrea

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 8:36 PM Robert Smith @.***> wrote:

+1

— Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl/issues/453#issuecomment-1254083822, or unsubscribe https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAFNRFOURZIVL5AKVH5XW6TV7NIRPANCNFSM6AAAAAAQRXOGZY . You are receiving this because you were mentioned.Message ID: @.***>

6502 avatar Sep 21 '22 19:09 6502

Similar to what others have said, I won't hold back the relicensing so I give my approval if it is deemed necessary but I disagree with the move away from copyleft licenses.

PuercoPop avatar Sep 22 '22 03:09 PuercoPop

Approved.

eudoxia0 avatar Sep 22 '22 03:09 eudoxia0

I'm totally OK with the change to MIT, but I'd love to know if there was a motivating factor, and whether the developers think it will encourage their own further development. 🙂

stylewarning avatar Sep 22 '22 03:09 stylewarning

OK with the licensing change.

samebchase avatar Sep 22 '22 05:09 samebchase

I'm totally OK with the change to MIT, but I'd love to know if there was a motivating factor, and whether the developers think it will encourage their own further development. 🙂

Good point. We're hearing lot of people 'not opposing' to it, but not if it'll make it easier for them to use. I'd love to hear that from others too!

This is the (latest) thread where the topic came up: https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl/discussions/441#discussioncomment-3580135

My opinion: I like copyleft but I think it doesn't fit a Lisp implementation well. I'd like people to feel comfortable that they can use it without making their work GPL too. By nature in Lisp, it's hard to state what is a 'improvement' to jscl vs just using it. (what if you do (defun cl:mapcar ...) in your application? I think the simplicity of MIT wins and it would solve that.

davazp avatar Sep 22 '22 06:09 davazp

I already accepted a license change, a few years ago, for my contributions to JSCL — because I’d contributed to the "prelude" which would be included verbatim in the user's object code. (I had thought that the LGPL was created for basically just this purpose, and I don't know why it wasn't used here.)

Still, without more information, and as much as I can walk back my prior acceptance, I do not approve a license change away from the GNU GPL.

What's the driver behind this? Are there companies who wish to use Common Lisp on webpages, and want a license which is more corporate-friendly than user-freedom-preserving? While I recognize that this particular decision has virtually zero effect on the global software landscape, I don't think the world needs more software which can be used in proprietary software without giving anything back to the community.

Additionally, I've been around long enough to know that when someone says "I'd use/contribute to this, if only XYZ", in 99% of cases, even if you change XYZ, they're still not going to. It’s just an excuse. Nothing is ever gained by chasing drive-by suggestions.

As for whether the GPL "fits" Lisp: one of the first programs to ever use the GNU GPL was a Lisp (GNU Emacs), and it's still going strong today. I can't name any other 1980's software that I'm still using. Interestingly, GNU Emacs is also used extensively in the demo made by the person asking for this license change. This person is asking for JSCL to change its license on the grounds that "GPL is not freedom for programming tools ever" — while taking advantage of the freedoms offered by a GPL-licensed programming tool.

kengruven avatar Sep 25 '22 19:09 kengruven

Ken, thanks for the opinion of the one from persons who stood at the origins JSCL.

I already accepted a license change, a few years ago, for my contributions to JSCL — because I’d contributed to the "prelude" which would be included verbatim in the user's object code. (I had thought that the LGPL was created for basically just this purpose, and I don't know why it wasn't used here.)

My opinion: it is possible that in this case a separate license for this part of the code could be considered. I guess it will be fair.

In relation to unknown persons who want to change the license - I would look with great pleasure at the work of developers who would redesign the system for a proprietary product.

I think that language tools should be under a MIT license. But it's up to you - the authors of the system.

My opinion: licensing addons - at the discretion of their authors.

This text was written using EMACS, thanks to its author for this, and for the fact that there is no need to post the text of the license for this wonderful tool.

vbr, @vlad-km

vlad-km avatar Sep 26 '22 20:09 vlad-km

(what if you do (defun cl:mapcar ...)

In such a case there is a moderator and he has a button Close

Is not it?

vlad-km avatar Sep 26 '22 20:09 vlad-km

Before we continue with the people missing, I think Ken Harris opposition is already quite significant, as he has contributed quite a lot and important code.

https://github.com/jscl-project/jscl/commits/master?author=kengruven

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davazp avatar Oct 06 '22 13:10 davazp

I'm OK with it.

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 2:24 AM David Vázquez Púa @.***> wrote:

We are considering changing the license of JSCL from GPL3 to MIT.

To do so, we need contributors of significant parts of JSCL to agree.

If you are in this list, please comment in this thread telling us if you agree or not.

Some contributions are small enough that we won't need permission. Below follows the contributions by author according to git-quick-stats https://github.com/arzzen/git-quick-stats.

  • Andrea Griffini @.***

  • Spenser Truex @.***

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  • cxxxr @.***

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  • chuchana @.***

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  • Yoteichi @.***

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brpocock avatar Oct 06 '22 15:10 brpocock

I don't think the world needs more software which can be used in proprietary software without giving anything back to the community.

As a counterpoint, many commercial institutions over ~2 decades have contributed back to SBCL despite its status as being public domain. SBCL, to my knowledge, has also not seen any serious forks.

Previous attempts to commercialize CMUCL are largely defunct.

I think a majority of Lisp hackers know that if they're going to use JSCL, it's in their own best interest to get improvements upstream. Maintaining your own fork is annoying and costly.

The difference between Emacs—which is cited as a potent example of GPL software—and JSCL is that Emacs is first and foremost a piece of application software (which is extended by a programming language), and JSCL is a programming language implementation. A second difference is that Emacs has and has had users since the beginning.

The fact that the implementation generates code, concatenates code, injects code, etc. that are all GPL only becomes a headache to others who are perhaps themselves trying to write FOSS software. Without a deep technical understanding of the implementation of JSCL, you have to assume the worst, and go with "using JSCL implies licensing my own code as GPL."

As pointed out, there are a variety of "workarounds" to this: LGPL, Lisp LGPL, etc. But, if JSCL should continue to be developed by its core team of hackers and maintainers, I personally think GPL will be a deterrent to its use.

We enforce freedom, but at what cost?

(FWIW, I'm pro-GPL, but I also know the Common Lisp community is exceedingly gaunt, and I'm not too hot on approaches that may deliberately make it smaller.)

stylewarning avatar Oct 06 '22 17:10 stylewarning