ffxiv-craft-opt-web
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doxxx
Heavensward support
There are five parts to this, I think:
- Support for crafter levels 51 through 60 using existing recipes and actions.
- New recipes introduced by 3.0
- New actions for 51+ crafters
- Specialist actions, and a way to mark which classes you have specialized in
- Somehow figure out how to even optimize using the new specialist actions, because wow that seems like a hard problem.
The new actions (especially the specialist actions) seem to not lend themselves very well to using a hard-coded action sequence, and that's fine -- getting even step 1 done would restore a lot of functionality for 51+ crafters.
I've noticed that the penalty is steeper inbetween 50 to 51 recipes and beyond, so that might need refactoring or taken into account. As for the new recipes, I'm sure those will become available when the Libra Eorzea is updated again with 3.0's DB data.
Regarding the new recipes, I've written a tool which scrapes the new recipes from the Lodestone website. I'll be updating the website with the new recipes soon.
Unfortunately, neither of us subscribe to FFXIV anymore so we have to rely on others for information about how the formulas change for levels 51-60.
Ideally, an actual formula that somebody else has already figured out. :)
But otherwise, a clear YouTube video showing the character pane, buffs and chat log (showing quality, progress, conditions, etc.) while performing a synth for a variety of recipes at various character levels. Specifically, a level 50 character doing the new level 51+ synths, (i.e. not level 50 star recipes) and level 51-60 characters doing level 51+ recipes.
I'm currently not very far into the 50+ stuff (all DoH are sitting at 50 except for CUL 51 from a Buttons in a Blanket binge), so I should be able to come up with something with a bit of effort once I have some material stored up for it.
It may or may not be relevant to this, but over in the desynthesis thread they've established the following:
The Craft Level (clvl, or c#, followed by 0 or more *s) denotes how hard an item is to craft. Generally, recipes are designed to be made by crafters whose job level is the same as the clvl. The Recipe Level (rlvl, or r#) is a hidden value that tells you how hard an item is to desynth and how much experience you'll gain from the desynth.
Craftable c51: rlvl = 115 OR 120 (check the recipe's Difficulty: 339 means r115, 421 means r120) Craftable c52: rlvl = 125 Craftable c53: rlvl = 130 Craftable c54: rlvl = 133 Craftable c55: rlvl = 136 Craftable c56: rlvl = 139 Craftable c57: rlvl = 142 Craftable c58: rlvl = 145 Craftable c59: rlvl = 148 Craftable c60: rlvl = 150 Craftable c60*: rlvl = ??? (160 suspected)
I know it's not data, but the difference between being level 50 and 51 feels really huge. I'd believe it if it turns out that you're effectively going from level 50 to 115 as far as crafting strength goes. Innovation I and II are going to be kind of weird in this new world, I suspect.
I have a few different classes in the 50-52 range now; I'll see about getting you some hard data this week.
@Diskmaster, has the Android Libra Eorzea app been updated with the level 51-60 recipes yet? If so, would it be possible to get a copy again?
You can upload the app_data.sqlite file to here: https://www.dropbox.com/request/4YPvXBukItu6t8gUxvyr
@rocketmantis I agree on the going from 50 to 51 feels huge. I didn't have the best gear, mostly quest/random craft (and even then just the class specific) and I was STRUGGLING it felt like. I was having to use HQ mats to even hope to get the collectables at a point of quality where i could turn them in. Once I hit 53 and replaced the gear (with a MASSIVE jump in control and craftsmanship) it got so much easier though, I'm even HQ'ing things now where I wasn't before.
That all said...
I've used this site for a long time and I wanted to try to help out a little, so I just recorded me doing some crafting on my weaver. The first is me using just a hard coded macro, which I copied into the video desc. The second I do by hand while making a couple other items and I hit a couple things like the new Byregots and Ingenuity. Hope these help some.
http://youtu.be/Nc35p0mNLqI http://youtu.be/U4OR-A6AgrY
@RyouR Thank you for the crafting videos. They were both helpful and at the same time perplexing, since it seems that recipes with the same level can have different progress formulas with the same craftsmanship.
Would it be possible to do another set of synths showing all stats again (assuming that your stats and level have changed since you recorded these videos):
- Rainbow thread finished with just CS2 (no ingenuity).
- Rainbow thread finished with Ingenuity 1, CS2.
- Rainbow Ribbon of Aiming finished with CS2 (no ingenuity), Ingenuity 1, CS2.
My suspicion is that the maximum level difference is capped differently depending on whether we are synthesizing an ingredient vs. a finished good.
It would help test this theory if someone could perform the above test with an ingredient synth and an equivalent level finished good synthesis that is not Rainbow thread / Rainbow Ribbon of Aiming.
Any volunteers? :)
I'll get on that for you here in a few. I'm now 54 with slightly more craft and a lot more control, but I'll boost the craft with food for better comparisons.
I'm also going to be working on some of the next tier up thread/cloth so will upload a few of them with/without ingenuity.
Edit: Ok, I'm going through and doing these and paying attention to some things as I do and I'm noticing a couple odd things. Namely that my CS2 seems to be doing RANDOM amounts of increase per synth. 1 time it's like 163, then 164, then 167 or something like that. I've got that in a video thanks to the way I'm recording (shadowplay) so when I noticed it in log I used the shadow function and it literally was timed perfectly to me starting to look at the log!
Edit 2:
Interestingly enough, when I did it on the ribbon it all stuck to the same thing. Given the narrow range on the thread, I'm wondering if square is using decimals and that may effect it somewhat. Regardless, videos linked below. Hope they help clear things up for you some!
https://youtu.be/wQzFTp8b2CA https://youtu.be/FCi23-AhTe4 http://youtu.be/7yNYteUu6Cc http://youtu.be/CXHwi2oBMbc
It's technically sir ;) But that's besides the point lol. Glad to have been of help. I'm also now 56 with some of the specialist actions and next gear set on if you'd like to see some of that. Some of them seem like they could be game changers, but also some are going to be impossible to macro. The 57 on is particular interest (in my opinion) for long crafts since it's another durability restore, but based off this new decreasing stack buff thing you put on yourself. If it's high stacks = high durability restore then for 54 CP total you could get more than using master's mend possibly.
@RyouR Well, I tracked down the "random" variation that you were seeing to having Ingenuity on versus off. :)
Now that you're 56 I would appreciate more Rainbow thread and Ramie Thread with and without ING on CS2, since modelling ingenuity is proving quite tricky.
Also, my information on crafting items higher than your crafter level is severely lacking, so if you happen to be trying a higher level item I would appreciate a video of that too. Once again with and without Ingenuity if possible, but I realize mats cost $$$, so I will take whatever you can provide :)
Hmm, I thought I had ing off, but it was late and I was tired sooo... understandable mistake :P
Yea the price of mats is stupidly high atm imo... But I'll see what I can do. I was crafting some higher level stuff on my cook, and think I still have all mats for it, so I think I can do that. But I remember it was a huge pain and I was basically doing nothing but CS2 or it would fail.... To be honest it feels like crafting in general has become a bit more of a pain rofl. Oh well!
Edit: So I'm starting the synths now and noticed something interesting. Ing had 0 effect on Rainbow Thread for me now. It was same progress for each time. I even tried using standard synth just to see, and it did nothing still.
Edit 2: Video time!
http://youtu.be/N8BSTRTBVHc http://youtu.be/AOiYMdCir4I http://youtu.be/CthIPhIjKkU http://youtu.be/V0rYO29tXwI http://youtu.be/2h_I-0LQvEI
Hello,
I have an hypothesis that might explaint this kind of gaps betweek lvl 50 and 51 somewhat (as well as the seamingly negligeable effect of Ing on some receipe) !
1 / Like we have new rLevel for each level of crafts (51 = rLvl 115/120, 52 = rLvl 125, etc), I think we have similar level progression for the crafter level to use in the formulas. Starting level 51 you cLevel is 120 ( i think ) , level 52 is 125, etc ... It gives somewhat good results but it is far from perfect.
2/ Also it seams that Ing1 change the receipe level more than 5 level (of at least more that 5 cLevel on the new scale. It may match 5 "true levels").
It maybe do this kind of conversion for more than just Ing. also there may be some hidden level to match level 50 thresolds (55, 70, 90, 110).
Also at level 50 there seems to be a slight diffence between what is given by the simulator and reality : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XAezPU_lXaphD0yKJsBHBqVFNSM7cy473ud9l9222qk/edit?usp=sharing Is this something introduced with Heavensward ?
Hope this help .
J.
Thanks for all the data!
@lokyst has been working hard to find a formula that produces good results for all the data we've seen so far. She's making some progress but they've done some odd things to the way level differences and Ingenuity are handled, which is making it hard to get consistently good results. For instance, high levels of control (>1200) and large multipliers (>4) produce quality gains that off from our calculations by a significant amount.
@Synlaar: Which synthesis action was used to get the results in that spreadsheet?
No videos, and maintenance messed with my plans, but I've got two progress data-points to share.
Alchemist 58 Craftsmanship 528 Control 520 Unmodified Careful Synthesis II
Linseed Oil: 212 Void Glue: 204
Sorry for any confusion my previous comment may have caused; on re-reading it, it seemed like noise.
I'm very interested in working out good formulas for progress and quality, but sadly I'm really bad at statistics and anything relating to regression. What I can do though is give you a lot of data if you think it would be helpful.
Me and a few others could go through every crafting recipe and doing both a basic touch and basic synthesis with varying stat values, then logging the results. Do you think this would help you find the formulas?
@RyouR @Synlaar @flan Thanks for the data points. I do not have a lot of time during the week, but I will plug them in to my spreadsheet of doom this weekend. Hopefully I have nailed the effect of ingenuity on low level progress. I'm almost scared to put in these new points! :)
@SagaZekken There's no need to go through every recipe, since for the same crafter level and recipe level (except 51 -- damn you, Squeenix!) they follow very similar patterns. What I think I should do at this point is provide a targeted list of experiments so that we can cover more unexplored ground. Yet another thing I aim to do this weekend. :) For now I can tell you that I am sorely lacking information on crafting recipes higher than your crafter level with and without ingenuity1 and ingenuity2. Personally I'm hoping it follows the pattern for level 50* recipes.
Later today I will post a link to my spreadsheet of doom on GoogleSheets so that if any of you want to try alternative formulations you have some data to test it out on.
Can anyone with a level below 50 (but not too much) can try one or two same level craft (and maybe some one or two level below) to see if the deviation seen at level 50 aplly to lower level receipes ? Thanks
A few more data-points; pairs are (Unmodified CS2 / Unmodified Basic or Hasty Touch)
Blacksmith @ 58 Craftsmanship: 542 Control: 528 Mythrite Ingot: 209 / 221
Carpenter @ 58 Craftsmanship: 542 Control: 528 Dark Chestnut Lumber: 193 / 220
Weaver @ 57 Craftsmanship: 505 Control: 462 Rainbow Cloth: 195 / 197 Holy Rainbow Cloth: 190 / 196
As promised: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tOz7EeCkmJDtueYXd1FChh41UTX4lDh0yWvOW3msydc/edit?usp=sharing
I also need more even level crafts above 50 with and without ingenuity 1 and ingenuity 2 demonstrating progress and quality improving actions.
Proper list of experiments to come later this weekend. Just thought I would get this out there.
By the way, I was poking around the game's files the other day and noticed something weird in regards to recipe data. There seems to be a "Factor" variable for durability, quality, and progress. These factors are different on different recipes, but sometimes the same even for recipes of different levels. I was wondering if this is something that was already there and known, or if it's something new with Heavensward?
Anyways, here's three recipes' data so you can see what I mean: http://i.imgur.com/v4tVztu.png?1
Those factors look like the difference between ingredients vs finished goods. Recipes for ingredients usually have half the difficulty and durability of finished goods of the same level.
Since I have your attention in this thread, I was hoping I get could get some eyeballs on the multi-page-layout changes described in #58.
Possibly useful for figuring out the scale for progress-gains:
Alchemist @ 59 Craftsmanship: 542 Control: 528 Void Glue: 209 / 221
This is the same result as seen by my BSM at 58 with the same stats and an identical-difficulty recipe. (This isn't too surprising, and it seems to be consistent with how pre-HW crafting worked, too)
Numbers from an FC member: ALC @ 55 Craftsmanship: 467 Control: 442 Admantite Nugget: 65 progress, CS2 unmodified; 136 with Ingenuity II Bladed Steel Jig: 65 progress, CS2 unmodified; 90 with Ingenuity II
My ALC at 59 and BSM at 58, with identical stats, got the same progress and quality numbers on recipes of the same level, so progress gains start to become very small pretty fast, relative to class level.
We'd expect them to stay small past a certain point (they were very small past a difference of 15 in ARR), but this seems to support the idea that recipe level difference still dictates things as heavily as it did before. On Jul 17, 2015 9:11 PM, "lokyst" [email protected] wrote:
@flan https://github.com/flan The last set look like BSM?
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/doxxx/ffxiv-craft-opt-web/issues/56#issuecomment-122477419 .
Well, I wasn't able to get videos, but I have a few more data points for you regardless. I tested a few different recipes with no ingenuity, Ing 1 and Ing 2. I'm not going to list separate results for Ing 1 vs. 2 because they turned out to be completely identical in all cases for me. I double checked just to be absolutely sure that I wasn't accidentally using the wrong Ingenuity, but it's very consistent; at least for these recipes at this level and gear, Ing 2 isn't any more effective than Ing 1.
These are all done as GSM 53, with 322 craftsmanship and 313 control. All numbers were collected at Normal status with no buffs active.
Mythrite Ingot, Mythrite Needle, Mythrite Bracelet of Fending, all level 52 recipes (ie. -1 level)
| Ingenuity | Basic Synth | CS2 | Basic Touch |
|---|---|---|---|
| None | 85 | 102 | 142 |
| Ing 1/2 | 102 | 123 | 142 |
Hardsilver Nugget, level 54 recipe (+1 level)
| Ingenuity | Basic Synth | CS2 | Basic Touch |
|---|---|---|---|
| None | 51 | 62 | 125 |
| Ing 1/2 | 102 | 122 | 142 |
Star Sapphire, Star Ruby, and Hardsilver Bangle of Casting, all level 55 recipes (+2 levels)
| Ingenuity | Basic Synth | CS2 | Basic Touch |
|---|---|---|---|
| None | 37 | 45 | 106 |
| Ing 1/2 | 102 | 122 | 141 |
A work in progress, obviously, but I am keeping notes on my findings here: https://github.com/doxxx/ffxiv-craft-opt-web/wiki/heavensward-formulae
@rocketmantis Mythrite Bracelet of Fending appears to be a level 52 recipe if I look at the lodestone. Can you verify your data?
@flan The Mythrite Ingot example you gave here does not fit the model at all. Could you check your stats/outcomes? Your BSM stats look identical to your carpenter stats. Maybe it's a cut and paste error?
I typed everything by hand, but I'll retry the synth today On Jul 18, 2015 8:27 AM, "lokyst" [email protected] wrote:
@flan https://github.com/flan The Mythrite Ingot example you gave here https://github.com/doxxx/ffxiv-craft-opt-web/issues/56#issuecomment-122134111 does not fit the model at all. Could you check your stats/outcomes? Your BSM stats look identical to your carpenter stats. Maybe it's a cut and paste error?
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/doxxx/ffxiv-craft-opt-web/issues/56#issuecomment-122548967 .
@lokyst Ah, you're right, it is 52. I'll update the post, and get you some 53 numbers in a sec here.
Update: with same stats as before, Raw Larimar, level 53 recipe (+0 levels)
| Ingenuity | Basic Synth | CS2 | Basic Touch |
|---|---|---|---|
| None | 68 | 81 | 142 |
| Ing 1/2 | 102 | 122 | 142 |
I don't know if it's useful to do the same recipe with different stats, but here: GSM 53, craftsmanship 455, control 385, Raw Larimar again I'm still testing both Ingenuity 1 and 2 even though they're still giving me the same results every time.
| Ingenuity | Basic Synth | CS2 | Basic Touch |
|---|---|---|---|
| None | 96 | 116 | 168 |
| Ing 1/2 | 145 | 174 | 168 |
Star Ruby again:
| Ingenuity | Basic Synth | CS2 | Basic Touch |
|---|---|---|---|
| None | 53 | 63 | 125 |
| Ing 1/2 | 145 | 174 | 167 |
I don't have much exp left before I hit 54, so let me know if you have any requests for me to test before levelling.
CUL @ 60 Craft: 592 Control: 557
Careful Synthesis II / Hasty Touch Frozen Spirits: 189 / 230
Unfortunately, I can't give you validation on my Mythrite Ingot, since I hit 59 after trying one, and the first quality struck on Good. The class and gear levels are right, though, and I'm pretty confident in the numbers I submitted because I double-checked at the time because they looked the same, which seemed surprising until I thought about it.
WVR @ 57 Craft: 505 Control: 462
Ramie Thread: 172p / 196q
Same stats at 58: 179p / 196q
58 with craft=542, control=528: 193p / 220q
@rocketmantis Examples of the same synth with with different levels of Craftsmanship do help. I think I am good for L53 synths. Go ahead and ding :+1:
@rocketmantis Actually, could double check the Larimar with 322 craftsmanship, using CS2 with Ing2 while still at 53 ... All signs pointing to it being on the cusp of 123.
@lokyst Double checked, it's 122. I tried a couple other values in the range too, since raw larimars are dirt cheap on my server. All still at GSM 53:
| Craftsmanship | CS2 + Ing2 |
|---|---|
| 312 | 119 |
| 315 | 120 |
| 318 | 121 |
| 320 | 122 |
| 322 | 122 |
| 323 | 123 |
| 325 | 124 |
| 326 | 124 |
| 328 | 125 |
| 331 | 126 |
| 334 | 127 |
I wasn't recording at the time, but I just noticed something that may prove slightly helpful. As mentioned before there seems to be a HUGE gap between 50 and 51 crafting wise. I just leveled to 51 on my Cul and the recipe I was making became MUCH easier.
369 Craft 327 Control
Stuffed Cabbage Rolls - Level 52 Difficulty 503
CUL Level 50 CS2 No Ing - 51 Progress CS2 Ing - 56 Progress
CUL Level 51 CS2 No Ing - 56 Progress CS2 Ing - 141 Progress
That is a HUGE increase
Just for comparison, although I didn't use it at 50, Standard Synth with Ing gives 176 and 70 without.
Joined from a PM on Bluegartr from @lokyst.
Here is a copy/paste from my BG post.
Here is some crafting/craftmanship info for some of you.
With 689 Craftsmanship, on a level 60 1 star recipe (so the turn in items for ltw and weaver):
Rapid Synth (No Ingeniuty I/II) = 203 Progress Careful Synth II (No Ingeniuty I/II) = 97 Progress Careful Synth II (Ingeniuty II) = 177 Progress
689 Craftsmanship on a level 59 recipe (Scale Glue):
Name of Water + Brand of Water = 489 progress (459 to complete)
689 Craftsmanship on a level 60 recipe (Chrysolite):
Name of Wind + Brand of Wind = 444 Progress (478 to complete)
I'm new to Github so I'm not sure what to do/etc. I can craft any recipe. I'm 60 all crafts and 689 craftsmanship with food (661 without). I have all three mastercraft books. Just let me know what you need ~
@RyouR Welp, you did just gain the equivalent of about 70 levels with that ding!
@Buffylvr Welcome aboard! I saw your post and thought you might be interested in sharing your results.
Right now I am gathering information on the effects of actions on progress and quality so I can derive a crafting model for 51+. I just input your info about 60* recipes into my spreadsheet of doom to see if it follows the prevailing trend. Also, at some point I will need to nail down the effect of the new actions.
You can share your results as comment or youtube video, whichever is easiest for you, provided you display the following information somehow:
Class Level: ## Craftsmanship: ### Control: ###
Recipe: XXXXX Recipe Level: ##
and then the actions and any effects plus their results. e.g. inner quiet stacks, quality gains, progress etc.
That said, because of the progressive nature of the "Name of Element" and "Brand of Element" actions, I think a Youtube video with the character attributes pane open while you craft would be really helpful, so that I can see how the progress gains increase as a function of the completed progress.
Sure @lokyst. I'm not really a youtube guy, but I have fraps and I suppose I can figure it out.
Do you have a specific recipe or set of recipes that would be helpful to you for me to try?
edit: Also I responded to this via email not realizing it would post the whole e-mail....interesting. Edited to take my e-mail address and non-needed text out, lol.
https://youtu.be/EoMtwQCNlDo
Hmm. I tried to embed but not sure if github allows that.
@Buffylvr Hmmm, something showing the new Name of Element + Brand of Element synths. Also 60* recipes with Ing1 and Ing2 if you can risk it.
I'll be making Dragon leather in a bit, that'll be easy. I use name/brand of earth on those. Gimmie an hour.
@Buffylvr Having had a chance to plug your last synth into my spreadsheet I think I will need a level 60 synth (not star) with and without Ing1/2 as a level 60 crafter. If you can do it for multiple craftsmanship, like you did in your previous video, that would help too.
Ok, here is Name of Element + Name of Brand:
https://youtu.be/KXjFlqQmvXE
edit: I was watching True Blood in 2nd monitor - enjoy the sound!
And level 60 ING 1/2 testing, and 2 different craftsmanship ratings:
https://youtu.be/00aQjmVyO38
@lokyst Let me know what you need. You asked for some 60* synths, but I didn't have mats ready and there is almost no reason to make them outside glamour. I'll copy from my earlier post just to clarify:
With 689 Craftsmanship, on a level 60 1 star recipe (so the turn in items for ltw and weaver):
Rapid Synth (No Ingeniuty I/II) = 203 Progress Careful Synth II (No Ingeniuty I/II) = 97 Progress Careful Synth II (Ingeniuty II) = 177 Progress
This was for Chivalric Battledress of Aiming and Chivalric Doublet of Healing, both 60* crafts.
If you need more synths (of any type - including 60* crafts) let me know, and I'll see what I can scrounge up.
Also I have a level 50 Alchemist on a mule. If you want me to try specific recipes at specific gear/levels to see if your model is correct, let me know and I'll see what I can work out.
So I seem to remember you saying that you could use some data on even level synths. Well I just hit 52 on my CUL and have some more data to share. Stats did slightly change due to food though...
52 CUL 350 Craftmanship 327 Control
52 -Baked Onion Soup 503 Difficulty
Without Ing: Standard Synth - 111 CS2 - 89
With Ing: SS - 167 CS2 - 133
CRP @ 58 Craft: 542 Control: 528
Careful Synthesis II / Hasty Touch Birch Lumber: 138p / 219q Under Ingenuity I: 189p /219q Under Ingenuity II: 192p / 219q
More playing with numbers on equal level for you
54 Cul 451 Craft 387 Control
Dhalmel Gratin - 54 641 Difficulty
No Ing: Muscle Memory - 211 (New CUL ability that increases progress by 1/3rd on first step only) Standard Synth 143 CS2 115
Ing: Standard Synth 215 CS2 172
Thanks to everyone for their help so far! I have been trying to update the wiki page with the formulae as I get new data that challenges my assumptions.
I am still having a devil of a time figuring out the effect of Ingenuity and Ingenuity2 though. Just when I thought I had it nailed, I got some level 60 information that threw my model, so I still need more information on Even, Low and High Level synths with Ingenuity 1 & 2.
In particular, more Even level synths with ingenuity 1 & 2 at levels 51, 55, 56, 57, 58 and 59 for those still going through the levelling up process.
@Synlaar I'm finally getting a chance to look at the level 50 and below info, It is possible that they have changed the crafting formulas in HW.
If possible could you provide more examples of level 50 recipes on your level 50 crafter at different levels of craftsmanship?
Here's some I did with alchemy at lvl 57 and 58. Hope it helps. Will try with a higher level even recipe when i can.
| Craft | Level | Craftsmanship | Item | Item lvl |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Alchemy | 57 | 509 | Void Glue | 51 |
| Buff | none | ing 1 | ing 2 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Progress: | 196 | 196 | 196 |
| Craft | Level | Craftsmanship | Item | Item lvl |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Alchemy | 58 | 520 | Void Glue | 51 |
| Buff | none | ing 1 | ing 2 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Progress: | 200 | 200 | 200 |
| Craft | Level | Craftsmanship | Item | Item lvl |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Goldsmith | 56 | 526 | Hardsilver Nugget | 54 |
| Buff | none | ing 1 | ing 2 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Progress: | 171 | 202 | 202 |
Totally random, but how do you make those tables?
Anyways, more equal level synthing for you on my WVR today.
58 Weaver 496 Craftsmanship 450 Control
Chemerical Felt - Lvl 58 Difficulty 431 Durability 35 (not sure if this matters, but it's odd to see)
With Ing SS 216 CS2 173
Without Ing SS 158 CS2 126
Boosted my Craftsmanship to 515 since I needed CP food for a good rotation... No ing numbers atm, but add on
Without ing SS 164 CS2 131
to the Chemerical Felt
Right, so I hit 60 on my weaver last night and was able to do a level 60 synth today. Since it was the new glamour top I did data points for with and without Ing, but I didn't do any careful synth on it (partially cause I wasn't fully thinking about this when doing it, was too excited to make one lol)
| Craft & Lvl | Craftsmanship | Control | Item & Lvl | Difficulty |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Weaver 60 | 641 | 608 | 60 1 Star - Thavnairian Bustier | 1116 |
| Skill | No Ing Progress | Ing Progress |
|---|---|---|
| SS | 188 | 112 |
I will double check those numbers in a couple days as I MAY have been in a slightly different gear set when making it, but I don't believe I was since I wanted to make sure it'd craft.
I also was doing some lower level Alchemist stuff, synthing a 52 item on a 50. I don't know how much more of that kind of thing will help, but here are those points too
| Craft & Lvl | Craftsmanship | Control | Item & Lvl | Difficulty |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Alchemist 50 | 338 | 320 | 52 - Holy Water | 251 |
| Skill | No Ing Progress | Ing Progress |
|---|---|---|
| SS | NA | 64 |
| CS2 | NA | 51 |
Edit: Now that I figured out what I did wrong with tables here are some more crafts in table form instead of other way I had...
| Craft & Lvl | Craftsmanship | Control | Item & Lvl | Difficulty |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Weaver 60 | 641 | 608 | 60 Chimerical Felt Skirt | 956 |
| Skill | No Ing Progress | Ing Progress |
|---|---|---|
| SS | 205 | NA |
| Trained Hand | 205 | NA |
| Careful Synth I | 123 | NA |
Yes, Careful Synth 1 not 2... I was using new hotbar and didn't notice that I drug the wrong one out!)
Trained Hand is specialist action that can only be used when whistle and inner quiet are equal. It has the same efficiency as Standard Synth of 150% and increases both progress and quality. It may not be macro'able due to the conditions, but it may help provide another data point since it came out the same as a standard synth.
@RyouR Did you typo the details of the Thavnairian Bustier and the bigger number should be with ING? Because that makes no sense. o_O
Well, I'm glad you were excited!
As for the alchemy recipes, yes they are useful because I still need examples of rLvl > cLvl. Thanks!
~~Blacksmith Level 51 (Crafts 332 Control 332 CP 334), making Mythrite Nuggets Basic Synth: 88 Prog, w/ING1 106 Prog, w/ING2 106 Prog Std Synth: 159 Prog, ING1/ING2 has no change with this. CS1: 79 Prog, ING1/ING2 95 Prog CS2: 127 Prog, ING1/ING2 no change.~~
Edit: ~~Clarified meaning.~~ After a moment of thought, since I didn't think to write down those records, at the time those tests were performed, the ING1/ING2 data is useless here where not specific. The initial set of tests I think were done half-asleep, a fresh set of data was provided in a later post.
Marking post out based on observations later on.
@lokyst Yea, I do believe I did typo those rofl! Hey it was my first table, gimme some slack :P Unfortunately I don't have the log anymore, since I didn't screen shot it, but I'm sure I'll be making more once I get the gil for it and can be doubly sure.
Edit: Not sure if I posted this one before or not, but here is a new one for you.
| Craft & Lvl | Craftsmanship | Control | Item & Lvl | Difficulty |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Weaver 60 | 641 | 608 | 58 Chimerical Felt | 431 |
| Skill | No Ing Progress | Ing Progress |
|---|---|---|
| SS | 257 | NA |
| CS2 | 206 | NA |
@Diskmaster What do you mean by ING1/ING2 has no change with this? Please provide all numbers. There is just too much ambiguity to be able to guess what you mean by that.
@Diskmaster Also, could you verify your Craftsmanship? It's too low to be able to yield that level of progress on a Basic Synth -- it should be in the 400s at least, and it is suspiciously similar to your Control rating.
@lokyst My Alch is now 51 and actually has similar stats, besides the CP, to what @Diskmaster was saying. 325 Craftsmanship and 320 Control. According to what I found online Mythrite Nuggets are a 51/169 Diff synth, so I'll see about making something similar on my alch and see if I can get close to his numbers and replicate the ing thing
Not sure if you still need data on these, but I ended up doing some 50 star synths last night. All actions listed were tested with and without Ing 1 -- it had no effect. I should have tested Ing 2 as well but I forgot, sorry. I should be able to get some four star data soon too.
ALC 53, Craftsmanship 476, Control 387
| Item | Level | Basic Synth | Careful Synth 2 | Hasty Touch |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Spirits of Salt | 50** | 155 | 186 | 171 |
| Concentrated Spirits of Salt | 50*** | 154 | 185 | 170 |
Found an exact match, Enchanted Mythrite Ink. Lvl 51, 169 Difficulty. Again stats are Craftsmanship 325, Control 320.
| Skill | Non-Ing | Ing |
|---|---|---|
| Basic Synth | 86 | 103 |
| Standard Synth | 129 | 155 |
| Careful Synth | 77 | 93 |
| Careful Synth 2 | 103 | 124 |
All numbers were wrote down here right after seeing them in-game, so I know they are accurate. This is surprising when compared to @Diskmaster's numbers...
| Skill | Non-Ing | Ing |
|---|---|---|
| Basic Synth | 88 | 106 |
| Standard Synth | 159 | ??? |
| Careful Synth | 79 | 95 |
| Careful Synth 2 | 127 | ??? |
Some are shockingly close, and could be due to my having 7 less Craftsmanship than him. His SS and CS2 (claimed without ing) are also shockingly close to my Ing numbers.
If anyone has a level 50 crafter available still I have a theory on these numbers. These 169 Difficulty recipes are meant to be a stepping stone into HW crafting. We all know that synthing anything in HW is a pain if you're 50, but what if they left in a gap fil item so you didn't need to painfully synth the old star items (which lots of people were doing) or harder HW items. I remember reading that they wanted to try to make it easier for new crafters, and they wouldn't have access to those master books likely, so this makes sense. This also makes me wonder how those numbers would work plugged into the OLD model for things.
@lokyst Edited original post to reflect clarity regarding ING1/ING2. I saw no change, but to make sure and give additional data points, I'm trying again.
Gearset on BSM: Craftsmanship 332, Control 332, CP 334 unbuffed at Level 51. Left Side: Vulcan The entire Artisan's set you get for exchanging a set amount of two star tokens. (Spectacles, Gown, Fingerstalls, Chausses, Pattens) Raptorskin Merchant's Purse HQ (Meld: +3CP) Right side: Mythril File HQ Electrum Choker HQ (Meld: CP+3, Control+2, Crafts+3, Control+1) Red Coral Earrings HQ (Meld: Ctrl+3, Crafts+3, CP+2, CP+2) Militia Wristlets HQ (Meld: Ctrl+3, CP+3, Crft+4, Ctrl+1) Two Aetheryte Rings HQ (Meld: Same order as Militia Wristlets for both)
Mythrite Nugget (169 diff/51 level) - Please note that progress noted is what the chat log is showing. Test 1: Careful Synth II - 106 Progress Careful Synth II w/ING1 - 127 Progress Test 2: Careful Synth II w/ING2 - 127 Progress Basic Synth w/ING2 - 106 Progress Test 3: Basic Synth - 88 Progress Basic Synth w/ING1 - 106 Progress Test 4: CS II w/ING1 - 127 Prog (repeated to finish) Test 5: CS II w/ING2 - 127 Prog (repeated to finish) Test 6: CS I w/ING2 - 95 Prog CS I w/ING1 - 95 Prog Test 7: Standard Synth w/ING2 - 159 Prog SS w/ING1 - 159 Prog
Additional testing with two pieces of gear removed (Craft 324, Control 258, CP 329): Test 1: Basic Synth - 86 Prog Std Synth - 129 Prog Test 2: CS I - 77 Prog CS II - 103 Prog Test 3: Basic Synth w/ING1 - 103 Prog Std Synth w/ING1 - 155 Prog Test 4: CS 1 w/ING1 - 93 Prog CS 2 w/ING1 - 124 Prog Test 5: Basic Synth w/ING2 - 103 Prog Std Synth w/ING2 - 155 Prog
Yet more testing with only Vulcan equipped: (Craft 107, Control 61, CP 180) Basic Synth - 29 Prog Basic Synth w/ING1 - 35 Prog Basic Synth w/ING2 - 35 Prog
@Diskmaster
So you're saying that with or without Ing1/2 you saw 159 progress with Standard Synth. That doesn't gel with our existing data nor with what @RyouR has subsequently posted as well.
The reasons we ask for videos, so that we can transcribe it ourselves and double check that we transcribed it correctly when we get weird results. Because we get lots of weird results. :)
We're not saying you have to provide videos but please triple check your data and include everything. Even the slightest detail can make a difference.
@doxxx I didn't think to check SS without ING1 or 2 in the main test batch. Lemme grab some sand and correct that error.
edit: Just checked, ~~baseline~~ Std. Synth without ING1/ING2 with full gear set (ref previous post 332/332/334) is 132 Prog. edit2: And CS1 without ING1 or ING2 is 79 Prog with same gear set. Apologies for the confusion.
Just did another Thav Top... Also recorded but while it's uploading here is the numbers as I transcribed:
641 Craft 608 Control 1-Star 60 1116 Diff
Ing SS 188 CS2 151
No Ing SS 112 CS2 90
Ignoring my typo on confusing the non ing and ing numbers for SS, that's what I got above for SS.
https://youtu.be/6JxF3mNsjl0
Quick update: I have updated the wiki and the spreadsheet on Google Docs with the latest findings. It seems that there is a recipe level factor to quality. I have managed to reduce the error to around +/- 1 on progress and quality for most examples.
I unlocked the new GSM cross-class ability, Maker's Mark, and have had some chance to test it out in practice now. The tooltip description is this: "Reduces Flawless Synthesis CP cost and durability loss to 0. Effect duration determined by recipe difficulty. Available only on the first step."
Specifically, it gives you a buff (Maker's Mark) that appears to last 1 duration per 100 recipe difficulty, rounded up. This buff ticks down like normal, and while it lasts Flawless Synthesis costs 0 CP and 0 durability to use. So if you only spend actions on FS for the duration of the buff, you'll get around 36% of the needed progress done for 20 CP -- you'll fail 10% of them and the others will give you 40 progress each. The rounding means that it's much stronger for recipes with difficulty slightly over the nearest 100 than slightly under, and in fact it's strictly worse than just using FS for very low level recipes that have <=100 difficulty.
The main advantage use for it appears to be for high-difficulty items. Since you get such a long duration on Maker's Mark, you can drop a couple of individual Flawless Synths to pick up other benefits without affecting the total progress too much.
For example, recipes with 1401-1500 difficulty give you 15 Maker's Mark actions. Spending two of these on CZ (or a single Good on ToT) is enough to recover the 20 CP cost of Maker's Mark, and then you have fifteen turns of fishing for Good/Excellent to spend on Precise Touch. It's even better if you're a specialist, because every Good/Excellent that appears will advance your Whistle stack. Net result: for zero CP you're still getting like 30% or so of your progress done, but also have a good shot at having 4-6 IQ stacks and a head start on quality and whistles. If you have CP to spare you can also spend three more actions and 75 CP to keep SH2 running for the whole duration -- it's less progress and more CP spent, but better reliability on progress overall and also gives the Touches 100% chance to land.
Overall it's a pretty interesting ability, especially when compared to the other new cross-class ability that isn't Name of Element: CUL 54 teaches Muscle Memory, which is just a cheap 100%-chance Piece by Piece that you can only use on the first step.
From a commenter on the blog, it appears there is some inaccuracy at lower levels:
Not sure where to post this but there seems to be an odd bug with BSM. I keep getting results that under estimate the 'progress' value. I am sure I got all the stats in right however for example the progress for a 40dur 31progress item (iron ingot) The solver suggested that It will only need one basic synthesis to get the 31 progress however i only get 27.
The stats I have in are LV: 20 Craft: 101 Con: 115 CP:261
With regards to the Iron Ingot inconsistency, the level of the recipe is different for ARM and BSM. For example, it's level 13 for ARM and level 16 for BSM. Using the formula for under 50 crafts from lokysts spreadsheet, and the stats given in the previous post, I get 26 progress with the craft at level 13, and 24 with the craft at level 16. For reference, the sub 50 progress I got the from the spreadsheet is:
baseProgress = (0.224779600835706 * craftsmanship) - 2.27812423237703
With the following level adjustments:
if (levelDifference > 0 && levelDifference <= 5)
{
levelCorrection = 0.0495215482164759 * levelDifference;
}
if (levelDifference > 5 && levelDifference <= 15)
{
levelCorrection = (0.0221128799787351 * (levelDifference - 5)) + (5 * 0.0495215482164759);
}
Apologies for any formatting snafus, but hope that was helpful.
-Rex
We've made some changes on the beta site. Read more about it here: http://ffxiv.lokyst.net/blog/?p=114
Hello,
I'm not sure if you guys are still in the hunt for more accurate lower level formulas, but might as well share this here. I've been mass collecting data from crafting with a bunch of people and have got around 36,000 data points of basic synthesis progress gains on different circumstances. These are all straight up basic synthesis values for different recipes / levels / stats, without any obvious external influence like Ingenuity. Unfortunately, I'm really bad at statistics, but perhaps someone here might find it useful.
Right now I've only analyzed the data points that correspond to when recipe level = player level and recipe level < 50. By recipe level I mean the internal level (i.e. 55, 70, etc) not the display level. There's around 2700 data points that fit these circumstances. When fixed to recipe level = player level, the formula definitely looks linear.
However, there's two issues I've found. The first is that looking at the graph, you can see how the game must be rounding the floating point output of the formula into integers, which produces those "steps" that show up. I really only know simple linear regression, and don't know how to account for rounding errors. Searching a bit here there seems to be ways of accounting for it, but it goes way above my abilities in statistics.
The second issue I've found is that for some values, the same craftsmanship produces different progress gains that differ by 1. For example, with craftsmanship at 114. This seems to always happen every 4 craftsmanship points, with the 3 points previous to it not having the issue. For example, 111, 112, 113 all give you 25 progress, while 114 sometimes gives you 25 and sometimes 26, while 115+ continue with 26. So far I've only found that it depends on the recipe, but have not found any patterns from other variables that might be affecting it. It could be a rounding on the fly kind of error that the game performs. I'm simply at a loss on what it might be.
Anyways, here's the data.
Thanks for that! I assume these data points were gathered after the Heavensward expansion?
I am interested in the data, not just the even level synths. What format is it in? Maybe we can set up a place to upload it to if google docs is not an option.
Yup, it's all post Heavenward. The data is in an SQL database right now, which I'm exporting into JSON and then into CSV to open in Excel.
It's not that big, around 34K results in total. I just put it on google docs. Just be warned, there's some clear outliers in some of the data that I'm unsure how they got there. It's usually like 5 or so data points per 2K that are clearly wrong. Also, some results have no progress or quality gain results registered, if you see a zero on either it's because that was never tested on that particular instance.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f87gsbIVcin5usbRGbg73xppqKXzbENqg3sBsV2A948/edit?usp=sharing
It seems all the formulas for each level delta when recipe is below 50 are linear, and you can get them to a +1 / -1 point of error using simple linear regression. I haven't yet analyzed for recipes above 50.
We've published another update to the beta site: http://ffxiv.lokyst.net/blog/?p=116
@SagaZekken Thanks for the data. I see there is now control and quality data as well. You don't mention this in your original post, so I am assuming these are all Hasty Touch or Basic Touch actions?
Oh yes, I forgot about that. The initial post was only about the analysis I was doing for recipes below 50 in regards to progress. The data also includes Basic Touch results under the same conditions as the basic synthesis result. The collection method tried to make sure there was no Ingenuity I/II or Great Strides active when collecting the data.
Really awesome to see more updates go in, Thanks for the support you guys are awesomepants!
