cmss13-devs
M707 Vulture AMR: Now actually available edition
About the pull request
Req now starts with an M707 Vulture case, that I've hopefully popscalded correctly so it only spawns in very low numbers on highpop
Explain why it's good for the game
The M707 is a unique and complex weapon that is in many ways a tool for what CM aims to achieve. It requires intense teamwork, lots of strategy, but when used correctly, it's very rewarding. It adds a new dynamic to the battlefield, and still has the mechanical complexity and drawbacks to allow it to fit perfectly without disrupting balance. Such a weapon should not go to waste.
Testing Photographs and Procedure
Screenshots & Videos
Changelog
:cl: Rem1 add: the M707 Vulture AMR to requisitions. /:cl:
To my knowledge this is event-only, why should it be made available every round?
To my knowledge this is event-only, why should it be made available every round?
As far as I know there was never anything specific intending it to be event only, and it only ended up being so for ease of implementation. I could be wrong.
It's a fully fleshed out gun that was originally intended to be available, that uses some very complex and interesting mechanics. I don't think it needs to be event exclusive.
More additions mean less stale of a game. If it works badly or too many people cry about it we can always remove it. Would give it a try for a week so everyone can test it out.
I should point out that this should not be what seems to be a free spec gun that can just be vended for anyone
Please learn that getting obliterated from the outside of your screen with no actual way to anticipate and thus counter is not fun. Sniper AMR highlighted this perfectly, so please don't add the gun that literally one shots everything. And yeah, we don't need to find out how bad for the game it is, we already know this from the many occurrences when it was spawned by admins. It was very bad.
Please learn that getting obliterated from the outside of your screen with no actual way to anticipate and thus counter is not fun. Sniper AMR highlighted this perfectly, so please don't add the gun that literally one shots everything. And yeah, we don't need to find out how bad for the game it is, we already know this from the many occurrences when it was spawned by admins. It was very bad.
More seriously, CM has many far more lethal weapons that are wayyyy easier to use. I think that in wasn't that bad at all in the TMs I saw, but I acknowledge that I could be wrong as always.
Please learn that getting obliterated from the outside of your screen with no actual way to anticipate and thus counter is not fun. Sniper AMR highlighted this perfectly, so please don't add the gun that literally one shots everything. And yeah, we don't need to find out how bad for the game it is, we already know this from the many occurrences when it was spawned by admins. It was very bad.
More seriously, CM has many far more lethal weapons that are wayyyy easier to use. I think that in wasn't that bad at all in the TMs I saw, but I acknowledge that I could be wrong as always.
i think this is what the kids call "powercreep"
there's a holotargetting version of the vulture that is a lot less lethal and requires friendly marines to take advantage of it. you might have better luck adding that in than an offscreen instakill weapon (this is only half a shameless plug)
Please learn that getting obliterated from the outside of your screen with no actual way to anticipate and thus counter is not fun. Sniper AMR highlighted this perfectly, so please don't add the gun that literally one shots everything. And yeah, we don't need to find out how bad for the game it is, we already know this from the many occurrences when it was spawned by admins. It was very bad.
More seriously, CM has many far more lethal weapons that are wayyyy easier to use. I think that in wasn't that bad at all in the TMs I saw, but I acknowledge that I could be wrong as always.
i think this is what the kids call "powercreep"
I don't know what you want to me say about that. I don't think new content should be considered powercreep, but to each their boxstation I guess.
Please learn that getting obliterated from the outside of your screen with no actual way to anticipate and thus counter is not fun. Sniper AMR highlighted this perfectly, so please don't add the gun that literally one shots everything. And yeah, we don't need to find out how bad for the game it is, we already know this from the many occurrences when it was spawned by admins. It was very bad.
Yes, it really isnt fun if your suddently oneshot by one of your teammates. It has a higfher marine killcount then xenos Iirc. Being that it has no IFF. It has also features that basicly taddle on the sniper team (you need an actual competent spotter for this to work) and roughly where they are Iirc. The vulture really isnt OP, its just that its used so little that xenos didnt have the time to learn how to figth it. Thats all. I mean, how do you expect xenos to figure out how to go against a tool that is ingame once every blue moon? Most dont read PRs or forums or wiki. Majority of the playerbase doesnt go further then the beyond client.
Zone is rigth though, make this only 1 kit. Otherwise its pretty much fine, its one of our most skill based weapons. So there is a good reason why its so strong. Dont let xeno cope bully you into nerfing or not adding it.
To both @TheManWithNoHands and @Rem1-code, there is one big difference: marines can be simply revived and xenos cannot.
The vulture really isnt OP, its just that its used so little that xenos didnt have the time to learn how to figth it.
How do you fight a gun you cannot even see? You cannot be serious.
This is so funny actually. When there is a hedge ravager with that big blue shield indicating that you shouldn't shoot it, marine mains be like: EWWW SO UNFAIR When there is an one-shot sniper rifle you cannot see as a xeno, marine mains be like: erm just learn to counter it somehow
How do you fight a gun you cannot even see? You cannot be serious.
The gun has multiple warnings/tell tells for xenos when its fired, basicly announcing its position every time you take a shot. One it has a uniqe loud firing sound, and it also gives xenos a large red text message about it. You cannot use the Vulture from behind marine lines, you need to go to the side line where your unprotected.
You can know where the Vulture is, it doesnt one shot, and it only works if the users expose themself and are out of cover. If you cant defeat a tool with so many weaknesses, its a skill issue.
When there is a hedge ravager with that big blue shield indicating that you shouldn't shoot it, marine mains be like: EWWW SO UNFAIR When there is an one-shot sniper rifle you cannot see as a xeno, marine mains be like: erm just learn to counter it somehow
The Rav shield is a powerfull tool for xenos that posses an extremly ovious tell tail, allowing marines to easily adapt to it or get punished. The Vulture is a powerfull tool for marines that posses an extremly obvious tell tail, allowing xenos to easily adapt to it or get punished.
Kettle calling the pot black.
Now stop with this nonsense, this aint the forums. This is for actual discussion about the pr and how to potentially improve it or fix problems. If you want to complain make a forum post.
please stop countering criticism by justifying it based on a different mechanic that is related in similarities alone. nobody cares about boiler, we're talking about vulture here, if you have a problem with boiler, go complain somewhere else.
no you can't justify offscreen insane burst damage by relating it to a xeno you can just walk away from. hedge has design flaws, and should not be replicated in even more unhealthy designs
You cannot use the Vulture from behind marine lines, you need to go to the side line where your unprotected.
You clearly haven't played a single round with vulture. Hello, admins were spawning it even on hijack and people were one shoting xenos in 3 tiles wide corridors. You can easily use it from behind marines lines, from cades, so you just made up this weakness to justify this gun that wasn't added to the game for a clear reason.
The Vulture is a powerfull tool for marines that posses an extremly obvious tell tail
How are you so dense? It's off-screen, there is no warning before you are already doomed.
You clearly haven't played a single round with vulture. Hello, admins were spawning it even on hijack and people were one shoting xenos in 3 tiles wide corridors. You can easily use it from behind marines lines, from cades, so you just made up this weakness to justify this gun that wasn't added to the game for a clear reason.
"A gun with no IFF, that one taps marines, can be easily used behind marine lines" -ihatethisengine 2024
It reminds me of one of the other most Ss13 devquotes of all time.
"Antags dont need to do their objectives, thats not their goal"-TG host 2024 (thats an actual quote from a convo i had with the shmuck. I just wanted to use this opetunity to baash the TG host. Has nothing to do with the conversation)
Also, i loke to quote zone on how easy marines can use this gun. https://discord.com/channels/150315577943130112/604397850675380234/1272743048408858645
got given this as a mini event as a CL for testing. the poor corpsman we tested on broke every single bone in their body and had the maximum amount of brute possible.
you might wanna change it an itty bit
got given this as a mini event as a CL for testing. the poor corpsman we tested on broke every single bone in their body and had the maximum amount of brute possible.
The ammount of FF was very much intentional by Zone & Thwomper Iirc
Needs balance review, Vulture wasn't balance checked as it wasn't in the game loop.
Oh yeah, there are also Holo rounds for the Vulture that are less bullshit to figth against. Migth be best if you put those in the kit instead of normal ones. Less worry about balance.
https://github.com/cmss13-devs/cmss13/pull/5719
To my knowledge this is event-only, why should it be made available every round?
As far as I know there was never anything specific intending it to be event only, and it only ended up being so for ease of implementation. I could be wrong.
It's a fully fleshed out gun that was originally intended to be available, that uses some very complex and interesting mechanics. I don't think it needs to be event exclusive.
It was very specifically added with the caveat it would remain event only.
The vulture is really cool.
The vulture is horrendously unfun for anyone that has to exist around it.
Balance is not really relevant. The design of the gun in the CM standard round is the problem.
To my knowledge this is event-only, why should it be made available every round?
As far as I know there was never anything specific intending it to be event only, and it only ended up being so for ease of implementation. I could be wrong. It's a fully fleshed out gun that was originally intended to be available, that uses some very complex and interesting mechanics. I don't think it needs to be event exclusive.
It was very specifically added with the caveat it would remain event only.
The vulture is really cool.
The vulture is horrendously unfun for anyone that has to exist around it.
Balance is not really relevant. The design of the gun in the CM standard round is the problem.
Hi,
I find in my experience CM is mainly balanced on giving both sides a lot of things that are fun to play, at the cost of them possibly being unfun to play against.
This can be seen by the existence of runner, lurker, warrior, hedge ravager, boiler, queen, OT, stims, greenos, shotgun buck PBs, lesser drones, playable facehuggers, OBs, CAS, Mortar, SADAR, GL, MOU, nuke, xeno king, and turrets, among others. I worry this may come off as snarky but I think it's good to show that it's really inherent to CM.
Thus, I don't think this is a relevant issue unless a major rework of CM is done to make things both fun to play and fun to play against. Right now, I think CM is mainly focused on indirect counters that aren't equivalent. The xenomorph counterpoint to the nuke, the king, is arguably incomparable. Both aren't fun to play against. Both are fun to play as/with.
regards
Hi,
I find in my experience CM is mainly balanced on giving both sides a lot of things that are fun to play, at the cost of them possibly being unfun to play against.
Im sad to disapoint you, but nah. CM isnt balanced by some genuises that know what they are doing. Everyone here is some uniqe flavor of dumb. Most of the stuff thats unfun to play against is either blown out of proportion because of salt, or just a fuck up. In general the goal in pvp is always to make tools that are fun to figth with, and fun to figth against. Just thats hard af to do that.
On that note, dont forget the brainstorming we had on discord Rem1. Current Vulture sucks to figth against, but dont forget we came up with a rough idea how to make it at least ok. Its more worth it to put your effort into that, then arguments on git.
Hi, I find in my experience CM is mainly balanced on giving both sides a lot of things that are fun to play, at the cost of them possibly being unfun to play against.
Im sad to disapoint you, but nah. CM isnt balanced by some genuises that know what they are doing. Everyone here is some uniqe flavor of dumb. Most of the stuff thats unfun to play against is either blown out of proportion because of salt, or just a fuck up. In general the goal in pvp is always to make tools that are fun to figth with, and fun to figth against. Just thats hard af to do that.
On that note, dont forget the brainstorming we had on discord Rem1. Current Vulture sucks to figth against, but dont forget we came up with a rough idea how to make it at least ok. Its more worth it to put your effort into that, then arguments on git.
Er. If it's blown out of proportion because of salt or a fuck up, then it's still unfun to play against. CM has never adopted a 2 way strategy and we're far off from that now. This can easily be seen by all the previous example. Nobody enjoys playing against boiler, or playing against SADAR rockets. Instead people enjoy both playing boiler and playing SADAR with OT rockets. This has always been the case and unless we take a major developmental shift (which I think would be good but that's a conversation for another time) CM will remain as such.
unless we take a major developmental shift (which I think would be good but that's a conversation for another time) CM will remain as such.
Then help start with that. Help make stuff more fun to figth against. Just saying "i dont need to make it fun to figth against, because other stuff isnt" aint a solution. Its just an excuse. If we want the game to be more fun for everyone we have to change it to that. Piece by piece.
So if you want CM to be more fun for both sides, the attacker and the attacked, help do that. Im working on tank balance stuff for that myself. Thats not something everyone decides together at the same moment. Its something done bit by bit.
If you dont want to, thats fine. But dont say stuff like you dont do it because xyz isnt like that. Especially if you can activly help make the game more fun instead.
unless we take a major developmental shift (which I think would be good but that's a conversation for another time) CM will remain as such.
Then help start with that. Help make stuff more fun to figth against. Just saying "i dont need to make it fun to figth against, because other stuff isnt" aint a solution. Its just an excuse. If we want the game to be more fun for everyone we have to change it to that. Piece by piece.
So if you want CM to be more fun for both sides, the attacker and the attacked, help do that. Im myself working on tank balance stuff for that, myself. Thats not something everyone decides together at the same moment. Its something done bit by bit.
If you dont want to, thats fine. But dont say stuff like you dont do it because xyz isnt like that. Especially if you can activly help make the game more fun instead.
Ares when you convince the entire maintainer team and the host to drastically change the way the game currently operates and code a full rework of runner, lurker, warrior, hedge ravager, boiler, queen, OT, stims, greenos, shotgun buck PBs, lesser drones, playable facehuggers, OBs, CAS, Mortar, SADAR, GL, MOU, nuke, xeno king, and turrets, among others
I think making everything good and fun to play is a far better solution then the balance hell
I think making everything good and fun to play is a far better solution then the balance hell
This is a competitive game, if you just gonna add some random stuff with little to no thought of how it will affect the game, you will only make it more frustrating for everyone. Vulture should stay buried. I don't wanna get DELETED off screen by Vulture with no warning, just like I don't wanna get 6 fracs from FF because my teammate got his hands on the gun.
CM balance is far from perfect, but that's no reason to just throw everything in because of your subjective "fun". Everything you mentioned has its problems, but it doesn't compare to Vulture. King is ok to play against. The only bs ability he has is his ability to spam shove marines by walking over them. It's pretty easy to counter though by keeping your distance. And remember, King is an end game mechanic. Whereas with Vulture you just drop it in req for some reason. You don't even add another stupid sniper spec option, you just leave it in req. Not like we need more stupid sniper specs options.
Honestly I am baffled this is not closed yet. LTB was told a hard "no" and for good reason. But is anyone among devs really thinking about adding Vulture???
I think making everything good and fun to play is a far better solution then the balance hell
This is a competitive game, if you just gonna add some random stuff with little to no thought of how it will affect the game, you will only make it more frustrating for everyone. Vulture should stay buried. I don't wanna get DELETED off screen by Vulture with no warning, just like I don't wanna get 6 fracs from FF because my teammate got his hands on the gun.
CM balance is far from perfect, but that's no reason to just throw everything in because of your subjective "fun". Everything you mentioned has its problems, but it doesn't compare to Vulture. King is ok to play against. The only bs ability he has is his ability to spam shove marines by walking over them. It's pretty easy to counter though by keeping your distance. And remember, King is an end game mechanic. Whereas with Vulture you just drop it in req for some reason. You don't even add another stupid sniper spec option, you just leave it in req. Not like we need more stupid sniper specs options.
Honestly I am baffled this is not closed yet. LTB was told a hard "no" and for good reason. But is anyone among devs really thinking about adding Vulture???
CM is not a TDM. This has been made very clear. All of these things apply to plenty of other features in the game. Nobody wants to die to a an AP SADAR rocket, yet we don't remove them because they aren't fun to play against.
King is one of many, many examples. the vulture is a net positive as it's fun for 2 players, as opposed to usually where CM is focused on stuff exclusive to a single player. I view it in the the same way one would view the Mortar. It's exceptionally hard to miss someone using it given it gives you their exact position when fired, very hard to use, and even easier to counter then the mortar. idk what you want me to tell you, sniper spec already has 2 guns
This isn't the tank