cmss13-devs
Research major property rebalance
About the pull request
this PR rebalances most relevant properties in research
the cost penalty that all properties have on create mode after level 5 is now a variable that can be false on each individual property all anti-xeno properties, fire properties and most healing properties have this variable set to false to encourage more variety on what research makes all anti-xeno properties are now available roundstart from basic chems at low levels bonemending is now only 2 levels less efficient when not using a splint on the broken limb as opposed to 5 levels less efficient
the big changes:
MST and NST now conflict, you can only have 1 on a stim boosting nerfed by 50%, each level of boosting now only boosts other properties by 0.5 levels regulating is now a common property and turns any ammount past overdose into sugar
fire penetrating is now a rare property and can be combined using roundstart available properties, this property is nowhere near good enough to be worth legendary status, considering it needs a flamer + other properties to be effective and only affects 2 out of 14 xeno castes
bonemending can now be made combining nutritious and hyper-densificating (found in defender bodies)
flowing no longer decreases intensity and duration, it is now possible to make a blueflame equivalent fire chemical with clearance 5 and around 25 points (30 if fire penetrating)
only custom incinerator tanks can now accept custom flamer fuels
Explain why it's good for the game
Encourage the usage of under-used anti-xeno properties, flame properties and healing properties by making them less expensive and easier to obtain Nerfing godstims by reworking regulating and nerfing boosting's abillity to solo carry a stim; stopping MST and NST from being used in the same chem.
Testing Photographs and Procedure
everything works, I tested its mostly number changes
Changelog
:cl: balance: MST now conflicts with NST, you can only have one in your stim, not both balance: Boosting now only boosts other properties by 0.5 levels for each level balance: Regulating is now a common property and turns any overdose ammount into sugar balance: Flowing no longer decreases intensity and duration, it is now possible to make a blueflame equivalent fire chemical with clearance 5 and around 25 credits (30 if fire penetrating) balance: Bonemending is now only 2 levels less efficient when not using a splint on the broken limb as opposed to 5 levels less efficient and can be made by combining nutritious and hyper-densificating balance: Anti-xeno properties, fire properties and most healing properties no longer have a cost penalty when above level 5 in create mode balance: All anti-xeno properties are now available roundstart at low levels from basic chemicals balance: Fire penetrating is now a rare property and can be made by combining oxygenating and viscous (both roundstart available) balance: Many other various changes to flamers, chemsmoke and anti-xeno properties /:cl:
This is not a rebalance at all is just a nerf to NST , MST and regulating lol
This is not a rebalance at all is just a nerf to NST , MST and regulating lol
a deserved nerf. Many other properties have been buffed and made easier to obtain to allow for more variety in what research can make
a deserved nerf. Many other properties have been buffed and made easier to obtain to allow for more variety in what research can make
my brother in christ there is not a single buff aside from flowing what do you mean
my brother in christ there is not a single buff aside from flowing what do you mean
healing properties, anti-xeno properties and fire properties are now cheaper at higher levels fire penetrating fire is no longer RNG dependent and can be made every round if you choose to use points doing so bonemending can now be reliably made with just a defender body
This is not a rebalance at all is just a nerf to NST , MST and regulating lol
https://streamable.com/i12okv
Now I will say Stims are supposed to be sorta a round ender and if research can make a stone that does that that is on them. MST just makes people fast and NST makes them not be stunned for a long time. Which can be countered and regulating is already hard enough to find nerfing it just will kill any hopes of stim making. In all my time playing researcher I have gotten regulation probably three times. Then on top of that you have it that research depends on intel if you need stims like this you need to make research not rely on IOs. It will be the only way to balance it.
my brother in christ there is not a single buff aside from flowing what do you mean
healing properties, anti-xeno properties and fire properties are now cheaper at higher levels fire penetrating fire is no longer RNG dependent and can be made every round if you choose to use points doing so bonemending can now be reliably made with just a defender body
My man bonemending does not need that it is already common you don’t need to add that. As someone i know said unnecessary change. Fire pen is not that good fire already can be good against Xenos. Adding to be able to get every round is not a good change even with the nerf.
Now I will say Stims are supposed to be sorta a round ender and if research can make a stone that does that that is on them.
We have other round ending mechanics that a lot more balanced than this. You just get rewarded for stalling the game enough for research to get stims, despite the fact that marines are supposed to be the attacking side. Instead you are encouraged to sit in FOB for as long as possible until research can make strong enough stim. Stim that you will never run out of. You can run out of ammo, meds, even food. You cannot run out of stims.
It's not a round ender, at least not a round ender we need. Most of the time actually stims don't help to end the round, because if marines are winning, they don't really need stims to end the round. Stims matter when marines are losing. And in this case rounds with stims tend to be longer, not faster. Just today's solaris round. Marines got stims when xenos were breaching FOB and we got another hour and a half of slog.
MST just makes people fast and NST makes them not be stunned for a long time. Which can be countered
What? Countered by what? I assume you were going somewhere with this.
regulating is already hard enough to find nerfing it just will kill any hopes of stim making
"Hard" is just RNG. You can make stims without regulating EVERY round. In fact people do exactly that. Regulating just let you to save a lot of points on making a stim, allowing you to make stronger stims a lot sooner. And if you are claiming that stims are supposed to be "round ender", why should we end the round at 1hr mark just because research got lucky? It literally makes no sense.
Then on top of that you have it that research depends on intel if you need stims like this you need to make research not rely on IOs. It will be the only way to balance it.
Everyone in the game relies on other roles, why research should be an exception? Plus you don't rely on IOs as much as people are trying to depict it. You don't need to be an IO to drag xeno corpse on Alamo, for example.
I agree with some stuff from this. Boosting, MST and NST being (slightly?) nerfed suck but are justified and I can live with it, makes us rely on NRS more. regulating nerf sucks though, yea we don't all of the people would have run around with like an ungodly amount of stims in there but WEIRDLY. I've seen people lose with it.
Regulating should stay the way it is, because even though research makes like... as many as they can, SOMEHOW it still isn't enough. After all, chemicals burn out fast within them, and jabbing people with 100u of the stim is also another weakness, not only do you give most of the stim to a single individual but research, and even with medical chemical line's energy won't keep up! and assuming both medical and research produce it constantly. transportation is also a problem with the limited empty regeant tanks in the ship AND the Alamo's slow going back and forth. providing we can actually, 1. get regulating. 2. surviving and getting points long enough to make a decent stim with it (not godly battle stim) without marines losing into 00:40-1:30 min into the round (I've had too many rounds with that time...) and before you say "why don't use OMB?" its quite shocking to say for that I've seen more regulating and boosting than OMB.
I'd agree with making firepen into a craftable property. I'm sick to death with making stim and it fucking failing somehow, "balance: Flowing no longer decreases intensity and duration," this is good to see too!. it will be good to see research making other shit than battle or healing stims. i already feel bad for the OT players that STRUGGLE to make explosive/burning chemicals. this will make let us help other departments easily.
sorry for being rude if i sounded like it! im just voicing my thoughts. currently ONE researcher other than myself didn't like this
Again, main issue of regulating is not "no OD" and not even "ungodly amount of stim inside ungas", but a sharp reduction in the cost of the stim. You can easily save like 40 credits if you found regulating and make very strong stims a lot earlier than you would of otherwise.
We just had another round that got dragged on to 3 hours because of stims. Without stims xenos would of won way earlier, but stims delayed the round by literal hours.
Previous round research made god stims by 1:30 with regulating and boosting with literally ZERO intel from groundside.
~~WHERE ARE THESE ROUNDS WHEN I WAS IN THE GAME????~~
Again, the main issue of regulating is not "no OD" and not even "ungodly amount of stim inside ungas", but a sharp reduction in the cost of the stim. You can easily save like 40 credits if you found regulating and make very strong stims a lot earlier than you would of otherwise.
anyway, i still think even though it makes a stim cost a lot cheaper. it still wont let marines win easily (like 40 percent they do win?) there a plentiful of reasons why even if we have regulating, MOST OF THE TIME when i play as researcher. we always don't have enough time to make... anything decent. not even a simple healing drug. because marines always fucking lose before the 1 hour mark, 1:30 at most.
We just had another round that got dragged on to 3 hours because of stims. Without stims xenos would of won way earlier, but stims delayed the round by literal hours.
i presume this stim has regulating. i don't think stim "delay" xeno's win is a bad thing. perhaps its because of the CONSTANT times i lost within one hour into the op. i don't see the problem with a 3 hour round. if you are tired you can just cryo. i thought the reason people cryo is because they are tired or someshit. i just don't understand why stim making round lasting longer is a bad thing. xenos often win anyway, heck i even saw a few xeno players saying to queen "you should've given them a chance" that's how fucking OP xeno side is.
Previous round research made god stims by 1:30 with regulating and boosting with literally ZERO intel from groundside.
like... zero? absolutely no alien blood or vial boxes? AT ALL? i doubt that somehow. did you even win with the stims? and whats the properties. i doubt its anything crazy. must be only healing.
sidenote: just wanna say that APS. anti parastic is broken. like it wont kill the larva whatsoever, delays it at best. heck it even kills marines so often because it lol
This pull request has conflicts, please resolve those before we can evaluate the pull request.
Conflicts have been resolved. A maintainer will review the pull request shortly.
anyway, i still think even though it makes a stim cost a lot cheaper. it still wont let marines win easily (like 40 percent they do win?) there a plentiful of reasons why even if we have regulating, MOST OF THE TIME when i play as researcher. we always don't have enough time to make... anything decent. not even a simple healing drug. because marines always fucking lose before the 1 hour mark, 1:30 at most.
Current marine:xeno winrate is about 50:50 if we count dying on hijack as xeno win. If we don't it's more like 60:40. Either way, it doesn't matter. Why should stalling until 1:30 reward marines so much?
i presume this stim has regulating. i don't think stim "delay" xeno's win is a bad thing. perhaps its because of the CONSTANT times i lost within one hour into the op. i don't see the problem with a 3 hour round. if you are tired you can just cryo. i thought the reason people cryo is because they are tired or someshit. i just don't understand why stim making round lasting longer is a bad thing. xenos often win anyway, heck i even saw a few xeno players saying to queen "you should've given them a chance" that's how fucking OP xeno side is.
Stim didn't have regulating. I was arguing with the point "stim is round ender", often it is not. Fighting against stims is generally not fun, fighting against stim for 2 hours is even worse.
like... zero? absolutely no alien blood or vial boxes? AT ALL? i doubt that somehow. did you even win with the stims? and whats the properties. i doubt its anything crazy. must be only healing.
Only alien corpses. It was instant FOB siege, so marines never reached groundside research or anything. Marines won, properties were regulating 1, boosting 7, NST, MST, NGN, anti corrosive.
Only alien corpses. It was instant FOB siege, so marines never reached groundside research or anything. Marines won, properties were regulating 1, boosting 7, NST, MST, NGN, anti corrosive.
Some stuff that is very very important that you did not mention:
- Research rework PR is on TM
- Passive regen of points is disabled
- you are literally liying hard , you cant get both and boosting,regulating winout grounside chems.
With that said , it either means marines killed about 20+xenos for research to be able to buy points or maybe they did actually got a lot of intel and you just didnt realized
Some stuff that is very very important that you did not mention:
* Research rework PR is on TM * Passive regen of points is disabled * you are literally liying hard , you cant get both and boosting,regulating winout grounside chems.With that said , it either means marines killed about 20+xenos for research to be able to buy points or maybe they did actually got a lot of intel and you just didnt realized
I've been told by researchers that they got both boosting and regulating from papers they got from upgrading clearance. Marines did kill many xenos as it was highpop round with early FOB siege (xenos regained their losses by capping, but you cannot do much with corpses as morrow forbid xenos from moving them), but they did not get any intel at all. Dissection PR is definitely getting merged, so my point stands. Currently on live server you can never leave FOB and still make godstims, and it's not like this is going to change. It was like that even without TM. Anyway, this is a big problem and one of the ways to (partially) solve it is properties nerf.
I've been told by researchers that they got both boosting and regulating from papers they got from upgrading clearance. Marines did kill many xenos as it was highpop round with early FOB siege (xenos regained their losses by capping, but you cannot do much with corpses as morrow forbid xenos from moving them), but they did not get any intel at all. Dissection PR is definitely getting merged, so my point stands. Currently on live server you can never leave FOB and still make godstims, and it's not like this is going to change. It was like that even without TM. Anyway, this is a big problem and one of the ways to (partially) solve it is properties nerf.
How is this going to solve anything? I just see another bandaid MST , NST nerf which if you search here and gitlab you can see there is plenty and non of them fixed anything.
Also wow xenos being punished for attacking LZ super early and diying ? Who could tell
How is this going to solve anything? I just see another bandaid MST , NST nerf which if you search here and gitlab you can see there is plenty and non of them fixed anything.
This will at the very least solve early godstims because research got lucky and found regulating, so they can save 40+ credits. This solution is definitely better than none.
Also wow xenos being punished for attacking LZ super early and diying ? Who could tell
Punished for dying? You already being punished for dying by losing xenos and slots. This is just lose-more. But that's not my point, you are pretty much going to lose 20+ xenos in 1:30 hours even without early FOB siege, this is just how the game goes. Just thing is, marines got another incentive to afk in FOB for 2 hours for stims and nuke, you have no reason to ever leave FOB as you gonna get both credits and tech points from xeno corpses.
Current marine:xeno winrate is about 50:50 if we count dying on hijack as xeno win. If we don't it's more like 60:40. Either way, it doesn't matter. Why should stalling until 1:30 reward marines so much?
i doubt that its actually 50:50. its feels like a 70:30 minimally. 60:30 bare minimum. thought this is like 90-130 players. i never seen people playing until like 170+ since the april fools update
Current marine:xeno winrate is about 50:50 if we count dying on hijack as xeno win. If we don't it's more like 60:40. Either way, it doesn't matter. Why should stalling until 1:30 reward marines so much?
Okay okay, marine to Xeno win rate is 50/50 then why fucking change it doing this will make the Xeno to marine win rate worse. Xenos are supposed to be better than humans in every way. I honestly think how it is now is fine having the Xeno to marine win rate as 50/50 is perfect and hijack is already in the marine's favor if marines win on hijack who cares the round is already over. So currently the Xeno to marine win rate is fine and this just hurts your point
Okay okay, marine to Xeno win rate is 50/50 then why fucking change it doing this will make the Xeno to marine win rate worse. Xenos are supposed to be better than humans in every way. I honestly think how it is now is fine having the Xeno to marine win rate as 50/50 is perfect and hijack is already in the marine's favor if marines win on hijack who cares the round is already over. So currently the Xeno to marine win rate is fine and this just hurts your point
Because win rate is not everything? I disagree about current win rate being fine, as I don't believe in xeno minor and I don't think hijack doesn't matter. But my goal is not to make marines win less or more. My goal is to have a fun and balanced game. Stims are neither of this. Win rate might be perfect 50:50 but it doesn't matter if 20% of these wins are handheld by god stims.
Win rate being whatever is not a reason to not nerf stims, as they just break current gameloop and don't even fit current balance whatsoever. Better buff guns or whatever if you wanna keep WR than let rounds be solely solved by RNG and a dedicated researcher joining the game.
Win rate being whatever is not a reason to not nerf stims, as they just break current gameloop and don't even fit current balance whatsoever. Better buff guns or whatever if you wanna keep WR than let rounds be solely solved by RNG and a dedicated researcher joining the game.
A dedicated player contributing to wining the game is something that can happen on both sides and the game should not be balanced taking the 8388888hr player as the standard reference. A prime lurker can kill alone 30 marines A plat GP can murder a lot of xenos A experimented OT will make explosives that can contribute to the game. A good acid runner can murder the entire frontline and win the game . Yet the game is not balanced around those that are good at their jobs. I have seen stims in the last 3 months but they rarely flip the round if marines are getting rolled. If xenos are getting rolled then stims just make the process quicker ( average stim time is near the 1:30-2 hour mark)
Research and OT are flawed examples because they are all about numbers and knowledge, there is no "skill" in their jobs. You are not outplaying the xenos when making a godstim at 1:10 (you got good RNG aquiring regulating and boosting) or producing maxcap shells and rockets for mortar and demo spec.
Research and OT are flawed examples because they are all about numbers and knowledge, there is no "skill" in their jobs. You are not outplaying the xenos when making a godstim at 1:10 (you got good RNG aquiring regulating and boosting) or producing maxcap shells and rockets for mortar and demo spec.
Stims dont kill xenos nor the rockets fire themselves . All your work is just for Aiding the marines to win . Also research has to scan their stuff , do the best methods to save points and the most important part DISTRIBUTE THEM. Plus you have LEARN to research which can take several hours.
OT have to hand made every single explosive they do (assembly + chemical + casing) and you need to LEARN how to do your job unlike others . I dont think there is any job on the entire game that is more labor intensive than OT
Discussions in this PR are getting out of hand. Keep the discussion on topic regarding the implementation. Most of the people here know each other on discord too, hash out concerns there.
with the new influx of anti-xeno smoke I have decided to make some changes to chemsmoke
chemsmoke is now transparent chemsmoke will now apply the "touch" effect every time a mob touches it, meaning you can no longer just run fast through the smoke to avoid it. To compensate, standing still in the smoke tile will apply much less than before
neurotoxic no longer gives marines brain damage, way too big of a downside for just a small ammount of daze on xenos. chemsmoke slightly better at applying effects. neutralizing now takes volume into account, for some reason it only cared about potency then multiplied that by 25. adjusted potency multiplier to compensate.
neurotoxic no longer gives marines brain damage, way too big of a downside for just a small ammount of daze on xenos chemsmoke slightly better at applying effects neutralizing now takes volume into account, for some reason it only cared about potency then multiplied that by 25. adjusted potency multiplier to compensate
The reason it doesnt takes volume into account its because unlike smoke flamer most smoke grenades and spray spit pretty much no chemical