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WomenWhoCode
Code of Conduct + language about trans people
All events are intended for people who identify as female or transgender. Men are encouraged to attend only when noted on a specific event.
A few concerns and/or questions that I have:
- 'female or transgender' implies that one cannot be both; this language could be (I am assuming unintentionally) discouraging to trans women, who often identify as both female and transgender. Perhaps this could be changed to
All events are intended for people who identify as female and/or transgender.? - 'Female' implies a focus on bodies instead of identity. I am assuming that the latter is, in fact, the stronger focus of the organization. Perhaps this could be changed to
All events are intended for people who identify as women and/or transgender? - Regarding
and/or transgender: are transgender people who do not identify as women considered to fall within the category of 'Women Who Code'? If so, why? If not, it seems to me that it would make more sense if this sentence were changed to something likeAll events are intended for people who identify as women, or, to express inclusivity, which seems to be the purpose of this line in the first place,All events are intended for people who identify as women, including trans women.
Just some thoughts; interested to know what people think!
Trangender people, who do not identify as women, who transitioned during their working life have had interesting things to say about gender in the work place. And I have really appreciated their perspectives in navigating issues such as salary negotiation.
Edit On further reflection, it is not clear that the above was not a hypothetical salary panel but a real one.
I do not want language to change in a way where chapters would be kicking out current members or affiliates or penalizing people for transitioning while they are members.
I agree with both of these things, but it doesn't really answer my question. I know gay cis men who also have interesting ideas about gender and salary negotiation. Can they go to Women Who Code events that are otherwise women-only?
I'm assuming that the answer is 'no', even though they are a special kind of guy. Is this different for other kinds of guys?
Curious about what the official policy is on, for instance, trans men.
On Apr 12, 2015, at 6:18 PM, baghaii [email protected] wrote:
Trangender people, who do not identify as women, who transitioned during their working life have had interesting things to say about gender in the work place. And I have really appreciated their perspectives in navigating issues such as salary negotiation.
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.
Women Who Code is an international organization, and I like how this issue has been left up to the different chapters to address as they see fit. I am a member of the Boulder/Denver chapter. For most of our events, men are invited as the guests of women. We also have men as speakers sometimes.
How these issues are addressed may depend on the number of members in a given chapter and also the laws of the country that you are in. It would be presumptuous to assume that what we do here would work in the Algeria chapter.
It makes sense to me that individual chapters / orgs can decide policies; still, though, there are ways this part of the code of conduct can be rephrased to be saying basically exactly what it is now... just without offending people.
On Apr 12, 2015, at 6:56 PM, baghaii [email protected] wrote:
Women Who Code is an international organization, and I like how this issue has been left up to the different chapters to address as they see fit. I am a member of the Boulder/Denver chapter. For most of our events, men are invited as the guests of women. We also have men as speakers sometimes.
How these issues are addressed may depend on the number of members in a given chapter and also the laws of the country that you are in. It would be presumptuous to assume that what we do here would work in the Algeria chapter.
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.
I agree with the first two changes that you suggest, but I do not like the third.
Fair enough. Regardless, I ended up here because I saw this:
Which, as a trans woman, makes me run the other way. Quickly.
You are voicing all my questions and concerns, Miriam, thank you. As a city director, I’ve been asked a couple times to explain the WWCode code of conduct and it’s not something I’m comfortable with.
I know there are a small number of women in our network who would prefer "women only" events. Defining that is very slippery. Without making them uncomfortable I’ve been unable to determine that that means to them. I am eager to provide a safe, stress free environment for everyone. I wonder if we dispensed with definitions based on sexuality and gender and concentrated on behavior if this would be easier.
I too would love to hear what others think. I don’t like using definitions of groups to try to eliminate stereotypic predatory behavior.
On Apr 12, 2015, at 5:49 PM, Miriam Nadler <[email protected]mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Fair enough. Regardless, I ended up here because I saw this:
[image]https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/3596891/7108455/2ed12964-e155-11e4-8827-2b89ee767b92.png
Which, as a trans woman, makes me run the other way. Quickly.
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/WomenWhoCode/guidelines-resources/issues/12#issuecomment-92157936.
Hi Miriam—thanks so much for opening this issue and opening the discussion. Much needed, and a personal risk. Thank you.
(I'm the one who started the group back in the day and ran it for the first ~1 year. I'm currently an advisor of the group. As such, what I'm about to say are my thoughts, not those of WWC HQ. For a lot of reasons, I have not yet talked about this issue with anyone there, but I should have brought it up by now and apologize for not doing so sooner.)
In the beginning of the group it was important to me that this would be a safe space for all women—cis, trans, and genderqueer—as there were no other safe spaces in tech to my knowledge in my area at the time. The wording on the first event was "open to people who identify as women. Queer and trans friendly." I got private emails on the side from trans folks about whether they were really welcome. I strengthened the wording to "open to people who identify as women. Emphatically queer and trans friendly." A wording that was suggested by a community member but never ended up implemented was "This event is open to women. This emphatically includes trans women." I'm not sure how we ended up with the wording we have today—my guess is a bit of game of Telephone over time.
I am cis so am certainly not an expert, only done a bunch of reading on trans issues and listening to trans folks, and have thought a lot about this as it pertains to Women Who Code particularly as the organization has focused on global expansion. There are a few important questions to consider, including:
How can we provide a safe space for women without harmful gender policing? My approach at the time was to put the above wording in the event description, and let attendees decide if they fit that description or not. If they showed up to the event that meant they decided they did, and no matter what I had their back if there were any issues.
How can we best guarantee the safety of trans folks? By 'safety' I mean both bodily safety, and also the knowledge that they will be welcomed and treated with respect when they arrive. This one has some important sub-questions:
What should we do in countries where we cannot guarantee LGBT safety? There are lots of places, some of which have WWC branches, where it is extremely dangerous to exist while LGBT. Should we say that WWC welcomes trans women if we can't actually guarantee their safety? Would that, in any way, be putting them in danger?
How can WWC have a policy that is trans-friendly as it expands globally into new cultures? This is the one where I have the fewest answers and the least sense of what issues will come up.
What if a city director is not familiar with trans issues, and will be anywhere from clue-free to hostile to trans women who attend? It seems irresponsible to hand them 'good' wording to put on the site as they will seem like they are informed/educated/supportive even if they are not. People read between the lines to gauge how safe they will be, as Miriam did in this case. But maybe that is a feature and not a bug if we don't train our leaders for this, which brings me to...
What sort of support is available for (or expected of) city directors who want to learn more so they can create a safe and amazing experience for trans women attendees? Perhaps there could be some sort of a guidebook, or orientation. Since this is a mostly volunteer-run organization with limited resources, if there is some sort of existing resource to use that would make it easier to get this in place.
I personally feel very strongly that Women Who Code should strive to be a safe space for all women—cis and trans—and acknowledge that it is a complicated thing to do with volunteer leaders and a global reach so we need to be persistent and creative. I'm happy to talk about this with any organizers or attendees, online or off, any time, and will do what I can as an advisor to help us do this better.
A historical way of excluding trans women from life is to claim we aren't women. So when I read:
All events are intended for people who identify as women and/or transgender
I see an intention to make two disjoint sets. Author seems to be saying 'look, we'd rather you go back to your street corner or back under your rock, but we know that'd not be PC, so sit in the corner and shut up'.
I agree, "Events are intended for people who identify as women women[sic] unless otherwise noted and are always open to trans gender" makes me run the other way, quickly.
And, similarly, "All events are intended for people who identify as women, including trans women" makes me uncomfortable. the "identify as" is a weasel word - "we know people have different opinions about the basic humanity of trans women. We're not going to get into that fight. Instead we'll make the event open to people who identify as women."
The term 'cis' came about as a way of pointing out there are many paths to being a woman. Being cis is not an inherently more legitimate one than being trans.
So I'm always more comfortable with language like "this event is open to all women, emphatically including trans women", or "this event is open to all women, cis and trans". I'm not genderqueer myself, but have a general sense that my genderqueer sisters just don't want policed, so in my experience this will work for them as well.
And yes, female is problematic - Are you going to check anatomy at the door? At one point in my life my last 6 sexual partners had all had different, really different genitals. Good luck sorting them out.
Guidebooks and orientations are good, but often the basic message is simple. This organization is inclusive of trans women. If you can't cope with that, you're not with us.
One thing to avoid, something first pointed out by Rachel Pollack. I'm quoting myself quoting her here, as I don't have a source for her to hand:
It was actually Rachel who first pointed out that this is the nature of much trans women's oppression - a trans woman comes to a place. There's an emotionally draining and time and energy exhausting battle to acheive acceptance on institutional terms. The trans woman eventually 'wins', but by this point they have become the focus of a polarized organization, they have made enemies, and the space has become emotionally uncomfortable for them - they've lost socially, and/or spent time and energy for no productive purpose, just to survive the bigots.
I've personally been through that cycle a half dozen times. After a while you just don't attend 'women only' events unless they're labelled as open to trans women, and even if they are, you're wary.
Anniepoo, this is the wording that we had on our last event.
"Our members self-identify as female. We emphatically support transgender attendees and are queer-friendly. If you have any questions (or identify differently and want to attend), message me"
Would it be better if that language was "self-identify as women" instead of female?
Sorry, I've just been lurking/following this thread but I just wanted to say @Anniepoo Thank you for sharing your thoughts there. It's really helped me understand how I can better the UK event wording for all.
Thank you everyone especially Miriam, for getting the conversation started again and letting us know how we can improve.
Language is important! WWCode has a history of CIS and Trans women as members, leaders, speakers, and mentors and we want to continue to communicate our Network as a place for all women. As Sasha pointed out, we need to continue to examine this opportunity as we expand around the world.
Based on this feedback we will change the Code of Conduct language:
From: WWCode events are intended for people who identify as women unless otherwise noted and are always open to transgender.
*To: WWCode programs are intended for women and/or transgender unless otherwise noted. *
"Intended" - because legally men who were born and identify as male are able to participate in our programs as long as it is for the expressed purpose of the program "Transgender" - rather than all women (CIS and Trans) so we don't exclude transgender men "Otherwise noted" - because for some programs we say "open to all genders."
Please give feedback if this still needs work. If anyone on this thread is transgender and willing to have our communications team check with you before we publish language around gender to increase inclusivitiy please let us know ([email protected]).
Best,
Alaina
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 10:28 AM, sursh [email protected] wrote:
@Anniepoo https://github.com/Anniepoo thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us!
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/WomenWhoCode/guidelines-resources/issues/12#issuecomment-92438794 .
Alaina http://twitter.com/alaina
CEO, Women Who Code Inc https://www.womenwhocode.com/ 415-370-1085 Facebook http://fb.com/womenwhocode | Twitter http://twitter.com/womenwhocode
Women Who Code is a global non-profit dedicated to inspiring women to excel in technology careers. We provide an avenue into tech, empower women with skills needed for professional advancement, and provide environments where networking and mentorship are valued. The organization has executed more than 1,200 events around the world, garnered a membership exceeding 25,000, and has a presence in 15 countries.
As a trans man I have been quite iffy about my participation in WWCode; as far be it from me to violate this space intended for women and possibly make any of them uncomfortable. I had this discussion with Dana, with whom I lead the Kingston - Jamaica chapter and she assured me that my participation as a trans man would not violate the WWCode of conduct. So thank you very much Alaina for adding clarity to this issue; thanks to you as well Miriam for starting this discussion and gratitude to all those who participated on this thread and shared their thoughts and experiences. I feel much better now.
@alaina: I appreciate your thoughts on this matter; however, I would strongly suggest reconsidering your rewording!
From: WWCode events are intended for people who identify as women unless otherwise noted and are always open to transgender. *To: WWCode programs are intended for women and/or transgender unless otherwise noted. *`
The problem with women and/or transgender: transgender is not a noun; it is an adjective. May I suggest something along the lines of: 'WWCode programs are intended for trans women and cis women',' WWCode programs are intended for women, both cis and trans, as well as other transgender people', 'WWCode programs are intended for women and/or transgender people', or 'WWCode programs are intended for women; we emphatically include trans women under our definition of 'women''?
Also, you mentioned that WWCode has a history of CIS and Trans women as members, leaders, speakers, and mentors -- I greatly, sincerely appreciate this sentiment; just a heads up, though: cis is traditionally uncapitalized, as it is an adjective, and not an acronym!
Thank you much!
- Miriam
(edited slightly for clarity)
I understand the desire to include trans men, but it's trans women who are usually given the 'not a real woman' routine. 'woman and transgender' is an event I'd assume I wasn't actually welcome at, but that felt pressured to be PC.
Trans men are welcome. Is that useful language?
I'll be the first to admit, we trans people do muddy this water. Our issues are different depending on which direction we're going. For trans women, the struggle is always, and continues throughout our lives, to be that of gaining access to the category 'woman' without it constantly being a matter of contention. Losing access to our old communities of men is usually less of an issue, though it can crop up.
For trans men, issues of uncontested access to the category 'men' can also happen, but they often have a stronger need than trans women to not lose those older communities.
In situations like this I've even added 'If these categories don't work for you, you probably have lots of experience figuring out where your presence is appropriate, so we'll leave you to it'
@sursh: Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response! I agree with the vast majority of your points, and understand that this is a complicated and nuanced issue.
Regarding "Hi Miriam—thanks so much for opening this issue and opening the discussion. Much needed, and a personal risk. Thank you."
Is there some risk to me in bringing this up? Certainly. Harassment; strong pushback; career damage; etc. These are all risks.
The far greater risk, in my mind, which is more like a likelihood, given the current wording of the Code of Conduct, is that there are trans women who are not attending Women Who Code events because they recognize something in the wording that they (whether accurately or not) heed as a warning. I have been burned before by ignoring certain language decisions in codes of conduct and in event descriptions. I am certain that other trans women have, as well.
That is, truly, a risk.
to directly answer your question
Would it be better if that language was "self-identify as women" instead of female?
yes, I'd use 'women' instead of 'female'. Most people who think seriously about these things would say that marks a distinction between gender identity and anatomy. I can't imagine anyone in this discussion is suggesting checking anatomy, or wants to do panty policing.
@everybody thanks everyone for spending time on this. Getting it right goes a long way towards fighting transphobia, far beyond WWC's boundaries.
Language I am currently using for the Boulder meetup is: ... Please Note: Our members self-identify as women. We emphatically support transgender attendees and are queer-friendly. If you have any questions (or identify differently and want to attend), message me, [organizer name], and I'll be happy to chat! Thanks! ...
I do allow men as guests of members during our larger monthly event (and have made exceptions in other scenarios). I went back and forth on wording many times in the last year, but that's the current version I'm using. I've considered other wording clarifying inclusion of other gender identities (genderqueer/FTM/andro) but am currently opting for this wording as it invites conversation and seems to help prevent some of cis-male attendance violations I've fielded in the past.
-Rylee Boulder, CO
:+1: Everyone on this post is so wonderful! Thank you Miriam for getting this started! Thank you to @everybody for feedback and making WWC even better! I will share this information with all of our event leaders in WWC Colorado chapters.
Thank you everyone!
Updating the official language to: *WWCode programs are intended for those who self-identify as women and/or transgender people unless otherwise noted. *
We can always update the language again if it is making people uncomfortable. Please feel comfortable providing feedback. ( [email protected] or [email protected] if you don't feel comfortable sharing publicly)
Best Alaina
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Pamela [email protected] wrote:
[image: :+1:] Everyone on this post is so wonderful! Thank you Miriam for getting this started! Thank you to @everybody https://github.com/everybody for feedback and making WWC even better! I will share this information with all of our event leaders in WWC Colorado chapters.
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/WomenWhoCode/guidelines-resources/issues/12#issuecomment-92969492 .
Alaina http://twitter.com/alaina
CEO, Women Who Code Inc https://www.womenwhocode.com/ 415-370-1085 Facebook http://fb.com/womenwhocode | Twitter http://twitter.com/womenwhocode
Women Who Code is a global non-profit dedicated to inspiring women to excel in technology careers. We provide an avenue into tech, empower women with skills needed for professional advancement, and provide environments where networking and mentorship are valued. The organization has executed more than 1,200 events around the world, garnered a membership exceeding 25,000, and has a presence in 15 countries.
Thank you for the update, Alaina. I will share this information with the Austin Women Who Code team. We will update our events to reflect the new language.
We have been fortunate to have transgender members and attendees but there may be others who are self-excluding because the language is confusing or ignorant.
_
Holly Gibson @hollyrgibson @wwcodeatx
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 12:14 PM, Alaina Percival [email protected] wrote:
Thank you everyone!
Updating the official language to: *WWCode programs are intended for those who self-identify as women and/or transgender people unless otherwise noted. *
We can always update the language again if it is making people uncomfortable. Please feel comfortable providing feedback. ( [email protected] or [email protected] if you don't feel comfortable sharing publicly)
Best Alaina
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Pamela [email protected] wrote:
[image: :+1:] Everyone on this post is so wonderful! Thank you Miriam for getting this started! Thank you to @everybody https://github.com/everybody for feedback and making WWC even better! I will share this information with all of our event leaders in WWC Colorado chapters.
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub < https://github.com/WomenWhoCode/guidelines-resources/issues/12#issuecomment-92969492
.
Alaina http://twitter.com/alaina
CEO, Women Who Code Inc https://www.womenwhocode.com/ 415-370-1085 Facebook http://fb.com/womenwhocode | Twitter http://twitter.com/womenwhocode
Women Who Code is a global non-profit dedicated to inspiring women to excel in technology careers. We provide an avenue into tech, empower women with skills needed for professional advancement, and provide environments where networking and mentorship are valued. The organization has executed more than 1,200 events around the world, garnered a membership exceeding 25,000, and has a presence in 15 countries.
— Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub https://github.com/WomenWhoCode/guidelines-resources/issues/12#issuecomment-92985067 .
I have to confess, this wording "Updating the official language to: *WWCode programs are intended for those who self-identify as women and/or transgender people unless otherwise noted. *
would make me self exclude.
I read it as a compromise position between trans supportive and transphobic factions. A compromise that looked something like "Look, they're not really women, but it's not going to fly to exclude them, so lets word our policy so they know we don't think much of them and they're here on sufferance."
Of course every trans woman is going to give you a different answer, But I'd prefer language closer to "WWCode programs are intended for women, cis and trans, and are emphatically queer and trans friendly. Trans men are also more than welcome."
If that's too awkward, "WWCode programs are intended for women, and are emphatically queer and trans friendly. Trans men are also more than welcome."
Sorry, our community's diverse! - it's sort of what defines us.
FWIW I initially got interested in WWC because I saw the trans friendly wording of an event description.
IIRC it was something like WWC events are open to women. We are emphatically queer and trans friendly.
@Anniepoo Glad you spoke up again. I had the feeling the new wording didn't actually fit with the feedback you had already provided, but I was having trouble putting it into words.
@alaina I think that's our first piece of feedback on the new wording! Any thoughts on tweaking again?
I like using the word emphatically!
And I'm not sure if "unless otherwise noted" is needed? That part would make me, even as a cis woman, be unsure what it meant.
Really I just like everything @Anniepoo is saying
+1 to "emphatically".
Does the "unless otherwise noted" mean "unless noted as intended for everyone"? In that case, maybe the language can be updated to either spell that out explicitly, or just have it dropped altogether. I think the current wording could be interpreted like "WWCode programs are intended for those who self-identify as women (and/or transgender people unless otherwise noted)."
Wordy possible rewrite that explicitly spells out the "intended for everyone" case, expanding on @Anniepoo's suggestions and @sursh's original wording: "WomenWhoCode programs are ~~open to~~ intended for all women (trans and cis), trans men, and genderqueer folks. We are emphatically queer and trans friendly. Select events may be open to the general public, which will be clearly noted in event descriptions."
^ My thinking here is to include basically everyone who is not a cis man as primarily included in WWC events. (Unclear to me if that's the actual desire.) It also seems good to assure that events open to cis men will be clearly marked, so that people who aren't comfortable with that won't be surprised. Thoughts?
~~I was also thinking that "open to" might be better than "intended for", as that might be a stronger barrier against invasion from cis men. BUT it might also be wording that makes trans and queer folk feel shakier about whether they are really welcome. If that's the case, then "intended for" is better.~~ Updated, as per hazmatzo's comment.
@Anniepoo I can see how including "identify" or "self-identify" would feel icky. I think that the intention with that is to make it explicit that it's the individual's gender-identification that matters in who WWC is including, not someone else's determination. To your reading, is that sufficiently covered by saying "open to cis and trans women" and "emphatically trans and queer friendly"?
Re: intended for
I think "intended for" is better wording. I think if we changed it to "open to" we'd have to check with legal and make sure the wording wasn't considered discriminatory, thereby putting our status as a nonprofit in jeopardy.
— Sent from Mailbox
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Clara Bennett [email protected] wrote:
+1 to "emphatically". Does the "unless otherwise noted" mean "unless noted as intended for everyone"? In that case, maybe the language can be updated to either spell that out explicitly, or just have it dropped altogether. I think the current wording could be interpreted like "WWCode programs are intended for those who self-identify as women (and/or transgender people unless otherwise noted)." Wordy possible rewrite that explicitly spells out the "intended for everyone" case, expanding on @Anniepoo's suggestions and @sursh's original wording: "WomenWhoCode programs are open to all women (trans and cis), trans men, and genderqueer folks. We are emphatically queer and trans friendly. Select events may be open to the general public, which will be clearly noted in event descriptions." ^ My thinking here is to include basically everyone who is not a cis man as primarily included in WWC events. (Unclear to me if that's the actual desire.) It also seems good to assure that events open to cis men will be clearly marked, so that people who aren't comfortable with that won't be surprised. Thoughts? I was also thinking that "open to" might be better than "intended for", as that might be a stronger barrier against invasion from cis men. BUT it might also be wording that makes trans and queer folk feel shakier about whether they are really welcome. If that's the case, then "intended for" is better.
@Anniepoo I can see how including "identify" or "self-identify" would feel icky. I think that the intention with that is to make it explicit that it's the individual's gender-identification that matters in who WWC is including, not someone else's determination. To your reading, is that sufficiently covered by saying "open to cis and trans women" and "emphatically trans and queer friendly"?
Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub: https://github.com/WomenWhoCode/guidelines-resources/issues/12#issuecomment-93519686
