Fixing Faction Blob Problem for good

[usfshihy]

Hello! While I know the work on the CK2 version has stopped, this could offer some useful suggestions for the upcoming CK3 one. Now I just finished a nearly 30 year playthrough of the Goldrinn of Shadowfang Keep. My goal was to establish a rival human/Worgen resistance to the Scourge and one that looks at Garithos with suspicion and as someone who can form an important piece in our resistance rather than we form an irrelevant piece in his.

• The mod has a real problem when it comes with alliances, whether we are talking about Horde, Alliance or the Scourge. Any 5-10 year playthrough would result in a world mainly split between those powers and the eradication of most small/medium sized states. For example, Garithos can always win the civil war by just calling all the Alliance armies, and the Scourge won't stop winning since it can put in it's 100k army wherever it pleases always beating the Forsaken in a few years. That's why, gameplay wise, Pandaria is by far the most fun continent to play in as it's the one with the least obvious power projectors, it's filled with small powers making for an amazing interregnum like experience for a CK game where anything can happen (It's the same reason why Elder Kings, another great mod focuses most on it Interregnum start date as it is by far the most popular). I rarely play in Lorderaon as I'll always find myself squished between those great powers so I tried to make my playthrough more fun by first controlling Thrall and Varian and making them break up the Horde and the Alliance and then giving independence to all the smaller Scourge vassals to add more singularity and personality to the world rather than 3 big blobs.

• And so it began! With the great powers broken up, so much more fun scenarios began to brew up. An Ironforge-Shadowforge war (which wouldn't have started if Ironforge had 50k soldiers behind it) blew up, putting central Azeroth at risk. The Dragonmaw began seizing territories in the highlands and made 5 failed invasions on Grim Batol. Eventually forming an alliance with the Rend Blackhand who rebelled from Nefarien and slaughtered him giving a rise to a true "Dark Horde". The Newly split Scourge power of Tranquillien ruled by the traitor Dar'Khan Drathir began a major offensive against Quel'thalas, losing in the process and quickly falling back in both power and land giving sway to a reunited Quel'thalas (Again, wouldn't have happened if he had the 100k Lich King behind him). The Scarlet Crusade began to advance and capture parts of Northern Trisfal and eventually made an attempt to take Strathholme, taking control of the Burning City for 5 years and appearing as the renewed bastion of Humanity in Lorderaon before collapsing in a three way civil war with one side led by Saidan Dathrohan holding the lands around the Capital City and the Monastery, another controlling parts in the plaguelands and the last holding Tarren Mill(If the Scourge was united, the Scarlet Crusade usually dies off in 2 years and that's that). In the south, a rising alliance between the Atal'ai and the Gurubashi began to threaten Stormwind making considerable raid incursions deep in Azeroth's territory. The two sides fought each other in 4 wars with no side showing any signs of stopping (They usually get curb stomped if the Alliance is there with full power). In Andorhal, Araj the Summoner began an attack against Scholomance trying to enlarge his territory giving way to a more complex Scourge than the one usually exists. The Forsaken made several major offensives against Dalaran eventually taking control of the great city (Forsaken usually get humiliated by the Scourge in 2-3 years). And finally, perhaps my most favorite development, a scarlet light uprising took place in Stromgarde forcing Galen Trollbane to flee to the newly captured Durholde Keep (A very unique development that wouldn't have happened since Stromgarde usually dies from Horde in the first 10 years along with the death of Scarlet light religion as it also falls apart in 2 years).

• And now we can come to how I think this situation should be improved, and that is by prioritizing individuality over the alliances:

• For the Horde and the Alliance, the separate nations like the Tauren and Trolls should be nearly independent from their factions. Once any new member joins a faction, the member gets a considerable boost in a large free retinue force stationed at their capital representing the faction's defense force for this group (ie. A horde defense force stationed at Thunder Bluff for example). That retinue should be appropriate to the size of the faction member ie. A kingdom should have 9k while a Barony 4k. The retinue should also replace the ability of a faction member to call for their suzerain's aid as that aid is always present in the form of the retinue force, this will also fix the worst problem currently in the game which is the blob power. It will also make way for the various faction members to gain individuality as they are responsible for themselves more or less, and will provide a fertile ground in which the factions as a whole will more fluid as now the Horde can suffer defeat at a specific front (ie. The Taurens losing a war in Desolace against the various Centaur clans) while AT THE SAME TIME another front advances (ie. The orcish forces driving night elves back in another UNRELATED front in Ashenvale). It will also make playing the smaller states a whole lot more fun as the existing scenario in the CK2 version is that once a neighbor joins one of the great powers then that that's as you can't contend with the 100k army that they boast and call whenever you attack. Now instead, if you are powerful enough, you can take him on even with the extra forces he has with him. Also strong conditions need to be added to make it really hard to join either one of the factions and instead encourage states to remain mostly neutral.

• For the Scourge, I had an idea in my mind for a while and I really think it will make both playing as the Scourge or one of it's members and playing as one of the many resistance groups in Lorderaon a whole lot more fun. For starters a very similar system like the one I suggested for the alliance and the horde can be implemented for the Scourge where smaller Scourge groups represent the various members and areas of control of the Lich king(ie. Araj in Andorhal, Kel'thuzad in Stratholme). A similar retinue force can also be present as the Scourge defense force. Now here's what I think the difference could be, if the player is controlling the Lich king, he/she can choose every 5-8 years or so to take control of one the members, where for example Kel'thuzad will step down as leader of Stratholme temporarily and instead taking the role of Regent while the Lich King takes direct control of that faction member. This is similar to how the Lich King went to the Plaguelands to lead the fight against the Scarlet Crusade in WOTLK. A considerable 10-20k retinue should appear representing the Lich King's personal army. This will allow the Lich king to assume control over locations that appear to be a busy front or facing heavy fighting and also allow him to fight personally in the battles with that insane combat ability he possesses. Now to balance that, the Lich king should only be able to assume control every 5-8 years or so which makes the choice not just important but also risky, as leaving Icecrown, the capital of the Scourge, might put it at risk from foes like the Scarlet Dawn who attempt to make use of the Lich King's preoccupation in a different front, where the Icecrown regent (Anub'arak for example) will step up as leader of Icecrown till the Lich king's return, other than the obvious danger of the Lich King being in the frontlines. Just like with the Horde and the alliance this will allow the Scourge to be a more dynamic threat where it can make BOTH losses and advances at the same time as most of the Scourge is now more or less independent, while still making the more important locations held by the Scourge like Stratholme far harder to take as the Lich King himself might just step down there to make you pay for every inch. It will also allow for some interesting infighting as some members might try and expand themselves at the expense of weaker members in the Scourge, which they see as unworthy. Lastly, this will give the smaller Lorderaon states a chance as they are no longer fighting the entirety of the Scourge (The forsaken always falls apart after a few years since no one can take on a 100k army) but instead one of their many fronts making so much more use of the greater province count you guys have made. And I do believe more is better in this regard, in which a greater separation of states is better than just a couple to ensure the "feel" of an interregnum ensuing in Lorderaon is accurate with countless smaller states and groups all vying for control for small swaths of land. This will allow for so many unique playthroughs like small Scarlet Crusade pockets, small Bandit camps or tiny Argent Dawn groups fighting for survival where the player can take a minor quest character in WoW and greatly change his fate.

• Finally, I think the wars fought against the Scourge should be considerably different. I don't see the Scourge signing a peace offer or them giving away lands they occupy just because of their casus belli. Wars between anyone and the scourge should have no white peace option, no peace treaty timer and always end with the winning side taking control of all the areas they occupy, akin to an invasion casus belli. This will allow for far longer and more drawn out wars as it should be and will retain roleplay situations as the Scourge are not ones to either walk away from territory or sign peace deals. The end of war messages can be altered as well to represent this unique form of war as:

  • "We have driven the Scourge from the contested areas and stopped their offensive for now. This is a great victory!" rather than "You have won for now.".

  • "The Scourge forces have overwhelmed our defenses and we can no longer compete with them on that front, I fear we have lost this battle my liege." rather than "We accept your offer of surrender.".

  • "Scourge forces have began a new offensive against our territories. Our scouts confirm their goals are XXXX." rather than "This is a formal declaration of war!".

Similar versions can also be made when the Scourge are the ones winning/losing and not the humanoids.

And that's about all, I know the post is a kilometer long but I really believe that the Faction blob is a real problem in the CK2 version and I see the CK3 version as a great chance to fix it. I hope you take some of my suggestions into consideration. Thank you!

[zumbak04]

Oof. That's a lot of text. Could you sum your suggestions? And write each suggestion in one line. Such a big text is hard to read for developers.

[usfshihy]

Oof. That's a lot of text. Could you sum your suggestions? And write each suggestion in one line. Such a big text is hard to read for developers.

Well my suggestion involves quite a big change in several of the systems and how you implemented them in CK2 so that's why it's quite long. However I did what I can to reduce it's size a bit. I think it's length might be worth it in the end.

[VespertinePetrichor]

Thank you for your thoughts. The faction mechanic in CK2 GoA was indeed cumbersome and your concerns re snowballing are very valid.

Do you have CK3? I encourage you to try our pre-alpha build if you can. You will find that many of the issues with factions, now called "Unions", have been resolved in GoA2. Here are a few examples off the top of my head:

1. Unions have a hard cap on members

2. Union members have their levies and taxes reduced.

3. Union members cannot be called to aid in internal civil wars.

4. Players can form their own custom union

5. There is a new CB against unions called "Shatter Realm" which destroys the union.

[usfshihy]

Thank you for your thoughts. The faction mechanic in CK2 GoA was indeed cumbersome and your concerns re snowballing are very valid.

Do you have CK3? I encourage you to try our pre-alpha build if you can. You will find that many of the issues with factions, now called "Unions", have been resolved in GoA2. Here are a few examples off the top of my head:

1. Unions have a hard cap on members
2. Union members have their levies and taxes reduced.
3. Union members cannot be called to aid in internal civil wars.
4. Players can form their own custom union
5. There is a new CB against unions called "Shatter Realm" which destroys the union.

I do have CK3 and Royal Court as well but I have never managed to get GOA to work on it sadly. If you know of any post giving some guidelines on how to make it work then I'll be most appreciative.

The Member count is very good idea and will stop factions from growing too large. I also love the non intervention in civil wars as that will allow for more unique encounters like for example a Grimtotem uprising in Thunder Bluff for example which wouldn't have worked before.

The Shatter Realm CB is also a great way to make big factions go head to head in a way that makes sense and also give it considerable weight however I recommend such a war to have no white peace option to give some longevity to this war and make anyone think twice before declaring it.

The only issue left is the apparent "invincibility" of faction members, that I think will remain in effect as long as they can be called in any defensive war. That's why I prefer the constant retinue force idea more as not only it will make members more or less independent, it will also make them consider whether they want to play defensively or offensively as to not waste his forces that take several years to reinforce. It will also make the game feel more dynamic, as in CK games in general, the armies are always grouped in full to deal with one war and then move on to the other. This on the other hand will allow for independent wars to be fought all across the faction borders where some will be won and some will be lost. A good way to balance it as well is to make that you can only call your union defensively when someone declares war on you with a CB involving taking your capital like how the entirety of the Horde came to the Forsaken's help for Lorderaon in WOTLK.

Lastly, what do you think about my ideas for wars with the Scourge, along with their faction split to make them a more dynamic and shifting threat rather than the unbeatable behemoth they are in the CK2 version. I wish I can see the Plaguelands filled with mini states of Scarlet Crusade pockets, Silverhand remnants, tiny Bandit groups holding small towns/towers making for an Interregnum in the lands of Lorderaon. It can make for many unique playthroughts as well as the player can control several irrelevant quest givers/targets and give them a larger lore than they would have had.