ValveSoftware
Caber balance changes 12/9/2025
You may call the December 9, 2025 Caber update a "balance," but I see it as the opposite. For over 15 years, the Ullapool Caber has been a unique and exciting tool for multi-kill opportunities, rewarding creative and risky playstyles. The recent changes have stripped away that identity, reducing it to single-target damage only.
This not only makes the weapon feel pointless compared to other options, but it also erases the fun and unpredictability that made the Caber special. Forcing players into single-target damage after so many years of enjoying its explosive multi-kill potential is unfun, unfair, and diminishes the diversity of gameplay.
I beg you to please reconsider and revert these changes. Bring the Caber back to life as the chaotic, high-risk, high-reward weapon it was meant to be.
This is satire. The Ullapool Caber can still damage and kill multiple players at once in it's explosion.
This is satire. The Ullapool Caber can still damage and kill multiple players at once in it's explosion.
I never denied that but only at a minimal range! less than a sticky in terms of range. if you don't use the caber actively and consistently don't speak about the caber and its current usage.
There was no balance change? This was a bug fix to let custom mvm upgrades (or any other custom modes that modify weapon attributes) properly work with it.
There was no balance change? This was a bug fix to let custom mvm upgrades (or any other custom modes that modify weapon attributes) properly work with it.
YES tf2 updated today! are you dense?
Hi, looking at the change that went in (https://github.com/ValveSoftware/source-sdk-2013/pull/1456), it looks like it only affects the caber when it has the mult_dmg or mult_explosion_radius properties applied, which in stock gameplay it cannot get; therefore, none of the caber's behavior should have changed with this latest patch. It would be worth attaching a video demonstrating previous behavior vs current behavior if you want folks to look into this, as it seems like it could be a bug introduced with the change regarding those properties.
Previous commenter's comment was about the above, and again it's most likely a bug that was introduced if its behavior changed in stock gameplay.
I would edit the issue name to something like "Caber explosion radius bugged after 2025/12/09 update"
Hi, looking at the change that went in (ValveSoftware/source-sdk-2013#1456), it looks like it only affects the caber when it has the mult_dmg or mult_explosion_radius properties applied, which in stock gameplay it cannot get; therefore, none of the caber's behavior should have changed with this latest patch. It would be worth attaching a video demonstrating previous behavior vs current behavior if you want folks to look into this, as it seems like it could be a bug introduced with the change regarding those properties.
Previous commenter's comment was about the above, and again it's most likely a bug that was introduced if its behavior changed in stock gameplay.
I would edit the issue name to something like "Caber explosion radius bugged after 2025/12/09 update"
it literally has a far less radius compared to damage. that was the literal change in the weapon. ACTS liek an explosion and has reduced damage based on explosion radius and explosion radius. before teh dmg of the caber on crit would do the 300 + crit to the person hit and the hitboxes around it for full dmg now the caber only does the 300+ crit dmg to the single target hit and the massive reduced damage to those around the the single target hit.
Again, I'm saying that this was most likely a bug introduced with the patch and you should provide videos demonstrating the before/after so that people can debug and look into it.
It's very likely the DMG_MELEE change, if that's true. However, that is a bug and will be fixed hopefully soon.
Using the double physics test beta (which hasn't been updated in a month according to steamdb so I assume it can be used to backwards check the behavior) I went and hit bots with a crit caber, as well as bots in the current version. Both versions all bots that were not directly hit by the caber but still in blast radius took 169 damage so you're gonna need to provide some proof or better explain the problem cause it's seemingly not there.
Double physics - https://youtu.be/atw0jxGVrIw Current version - https://youtu.be/-kJvsIS1hwU
Also being rude does not help your case.
What is with people demanding good bug fixes to be reverted for made-up reasons? I can't replicate any changes on my end.
Who wins?
A group of code reviewers, playtesters, and programmers. OR "Trust me bro"
It's very likely the DMG_MELEE change, if that's true. However, that is a bug and will be fixed hopefully soon.
@mastercoms I reviewed the code and everywhere the caber explosion changes gameplay aspects through the DMG_MELEE flag I had already brought up in the original PR.
Just in case I also reviewed DMG_BLAST_SURFACE (since #define DMG_MELEE (DMG_BLAST_SURFACE)) as well the 1<<27 bit shift, but nothing aligns with what turtleology claims.
I should also highlight his account was created 16 hours ago.
It's very likely the DMG_MELEE change, if that's true. However, that is a bug and will be fixed hopefully soon.
@mastercoms I reviewed the code and everywhere the caber explosion changes gameplay aspects through the DMG_MELEE flag I had already brought up in the original PR. Just in case I also reviewed DMG_BLAST_SURFACE (since
#define DMG_MELEE (DMG_BLAST_SURFACE)) as well the 1<<27 bit shift, but nothing aligns with what turtleology claims.I should also highlight his account was created 16 hours ago.
In turtle's defence. The PR with the changes and the recently released patch notes were both really quite cryptic about what exactly changed. Also, there was no discussion in the PR about what impact the change could/would have. I think a lot of us caber enjoyers got anxious reading those patch notes.
Also, the fact that the changes did affect gameplay stuff like passtime is a sign that it is not so simple to tell what the changes did, even to the people that know the internals of tf2. So in my opinion, don't blame a guy for beliving the caber had been nerfed.
i think combined melee+blast damage is not ideal, i think the caber should just be checked specifically, parts of the code may expect melee type dmg to only come from melee weapons and not explosions
I should also highlight his account was created 16 hours ago.
It may be to just report this issue, I don't think anything harmful was meant here.
Also, the fact that the changes did affect gameplay stuff like passtime is a sign that it is not so simple to tell what the changes did
Melee weapons in PASS Time are meant to steal the ball, it's more of a case of everyone forgetting that game mode.
Using the double physics test beta (which hasn't been updated in a month according to steamdb so I assume it can be used to backwards check the behavior) I went and hit bots with a crit caber, as well as bots in the current version. Both versions all bots that were not directly hit by the caber but still in blast radius took 169 damage so you're gonna need to provide some proof or better explain the problem cause it's seemingly not there.
Double physics - https://youtu.be/atw0jxGVrIw Current version - https://youtu.be/-kJvsIS1hwU
Also being rude does not help your case.
sorry for my rudeness but the caber has 100% been nerfed with this recent patch. Targets around the user hit takes almost 50-60% less damage than the previous build. Before the caber could effetely kill an engineer through its sentry and now it does no damage or extremely reduced damage not enough for a kill.
What is with people demanding good bug fixes to be reverted for made-up reasons? I can't replicate any changes on my end.
I use the caber every day and I noticed a massive in damage to surrounding areas and enemies. Its significantly less at times compared to the previous build before the patch. Enemies behind the initial target don't seem to die like before and in terms of evidence. What map is that testing one called? Ill try to get some clips.
I only use the caber and I notice a massive change in kills and hits on day one. It is my only attachment to tf2 and to have it changed after 8 years is just heart breaking. These changes were not needed.
also its not just me others are noticing the effects of it too.
It's very likely the DMG_MELEE change, if that's true. However, that is a bug and will be fixed hopefully soon.
@mastercoms I reviewed the code and everywhere the caber explosion changes gameplay aspects through the DMG_MELEE flag I had already brought up in the original PR. Just in case I also reviewed DMG_BLAST_SURFACE (since
#define DMG_MELEE (DMG_BLAST_SURFACE)) as well the 1<<27 bit shift, but nothing aligns with what turtleology claims.I should also highlight his account was created 16 hours ago.
i created this account because i wanted to voice my opinion. I noticed a massive difference in gameplay on day one.
I noticed a massive difference in gameplay on day one.
Please post videos if you can, helps a lot with debugging the issue and finding the bug. As many scenarios as you can think of.
I'm quite positive this whole issue is bait, I've been using the caber after this patch and have noticed no difference, it still does the same damage as it did before.
I'm quite positive this whole issue is bait, I've been using the caber after this patch and have noticed no difference, it still does the same damage as it did before
hitting walls and floors with a crit hit does significantly less damage and wont kill most classes as it previously did before. adding further edge reduced damage. its a major change for people who actually use the weapon and utilize the multi kills.
I'm quite positive this whole issue is bait, I've been using the caber after this patch and have noticed no difference, it still does the same damage as it did before.
also its about the multi kills damage not the single target dmg still does the 300+ on crit hit but it seems to do way less damage or inconsistent damage to others around the initial target
I'm quite positive this whole issue is bait, I've been using the caber after this patch and have noticed no difference, it still does the same damage as it did before.
if this is bait how come others are experiencing the same problems after patch? I can't tell you code wise what's wrong but its definitely finicky after the update.
Who wins?
A group of code reviewers, playtesters, and programmers. OR "Trust me bro"
Testing the Caber on bots that don’t move isn’t real testing. It doesn’t show how the weapon actually performs on real servers with ramp‑up, movement, chaos, and multiple players. On paper it might look unchanged, but in real matches the Caber is clearly weaker.
The multi‑hit explosion is bugged, the AoE damage is inconsistent, and the weapon no longer does what it was designed to do. When you only test against stationary bots, you miss the situations where the Caber used to shine, such as hitting groups, catching multiple players, and delivering real burst damage.
Right now, the Caber is strictly worse than other melee options. Removing its proper multi‑damage basically removes its entire identity. This update didn’t fix anything besides a small shield recharge on kill...; it just made the weapon worse because it wasn’t tested in actual gameplay. I use this weapon every day and consistent with my kills, now it's absolutely worse! and I am not the only to notice the effect after the fact. Are you going to sit there and tell me a person who doesn't actively use the weapon and say it's not changed at all? Don't make me fucking laugh. Shits 8 years without change and now I have a problem after the patch. Of course, its functionality changes and a has been hit with a HUGE nerf for no reason or purpose besides a person without any active usage in the weapon on casual and community severs decided hey, my changes with minimal and limited non real game testing is perfectly fine.
Multiple people saying it has now issued with eh area off effect... but no please keep posting videos of usage on non-real games and saying on text and code and my own server its oK.
how tf am i supposed to give you previous build testing? Want me to build prerecord caber clips at certain increments and maps and ping and server latency before the goddamn update drops? ALL I AM SAYING IS SHIT IS Different. Enough for me to notice without much thought. something was changed and it drastically effects caber gameplay weather you believe it or not. Others noticed the effects of the update too! its not just me. I don't know why you cant just admit you changed the gameplay for better or worse with your untested gameplay on bots. If this is an ego thing MY BAD I'm sorry. but this update was pointless and effected less than 1% player base who actively use the caber and enjoy the caber knight gameplay.
Do you really think I would waste my fucking time typing on this random website if I don't have an actual problem with this update? It changed the Gameplay simple as that. its different and worse off before the update. Change it back nobody gave a actual; shit about the caber not getting 25% charge meter back on kill for one shield and boots if worn.
Ok then, post video proof of current patch. You can just play casual and record clips of it not working properly or play tr_walkway against bots and show what you do for this damage
Ok then, post video proof of current patch. You can just play casual and record clips of it not working properly or play tr_walkway against bots and show what you do for this damage
its literally less than damage than normal its not hard to grasp the concept of its changed fundamentally. Buy me recording software and i post myclips
Ok then, post video proof of current patch. You can just play casual and record clips of it not working properly or play tr_walkway against bots and show what you do for this damage
its literally less than damage than normal its not hard to grasp the concept of its changed fundamentally. Buy me recording software and i post myclips
OBS is free. XBox Game Bar is free. A phone camera comes attached to a phone. The burden of proof lies on you to prove that the update changed Caber mechanics. Other people have disproven your claim with their own recordings. Why can't you do the same to prove it?
Buy me recording software and i post myclips
Steam has a recording feature https://store.steampowered.com/gamerecording
@turtleology i can try to do some tests, can you clearly articulate what's different and how you think it can be tested?
if you post a whole 5 paragraphs again i wont read it, just say what's different in like 1-3 sentences