Scrap crates can be removed by placing scaffolds

[ReLaX82]

Scrap crates can be removed by placing scaffolds on top of them. This works with all factions but is counter-intuitive, because USA and China factions cannot even see the scrap crates. GLA cannot effectively prevent the scaffold placement, but can try to kill the scaffold to at least incur a cost penalty for dropping the scaffold.

Noob and Semi players generally do not care about this exploit. Pro players use this exploit and think it helps balance China in 1.04, because China struggles versus scrapped GLA units.

ReLaX82:

I know its a controversial and highly critical point, but this one needs to be decided asap before anything else in this regard (with direct/indirect interferences) will be done. It needs to be disussed also with GR stuff as it should then be a global rule in the fairplay rules of GR. Please discuss. My approach is to take the most accepted Pros and form an answer out of them so we have that fixed.

Related reports:

• #592
• #56
• #647
• #641
• #1827

Proposal 1 APPLIED

Leave scrap crates intact when a scaffold is put over them. Same as we did for money crates.

• #1676

Proposal 2 REJECTED

~~Allow all factions to see scrap crates. This makes it more intuitive to interact with them.~~

Proposal 3 REJECTED

~~Allow all factions to collect scrap crates. This way GLA can be prevented from picking them up naturally. When USA and China picks up the scrap with a unit, then it just disappears.~~

• #641
• #1677

Proposal 4 REJECTED

~~Do not drop scrap crates from China Dozer, USA Dozer and China Truck.~~

• #592

Proposal 5

Drop different kind of scraps from different units. USA Dozer, China Dozer and China Truck drop money scraps only. Battle units drop regular scraps. Technically possible.

Proposal 6 REJECTED (by 2)

~~Allow scraps to be destroyed by weaponry. Could incur problems in regular battles with splash damage causing too many scraps to disappear.~~

Proposal 7 REJECTED (by 2)

~~Add "Clear Scrap" ability to Dozers.~~

Proposal 8 REJECTED (by 2)

~~Add "Clear Scrap" ability to China Truck.~~

Proposal 9

Reduce Scrap timeout.

Proposal 10

Scrap crates can be seen by all players, can be selected by all players, and can be detonated by all players with a click of a button in the command set.

Proposal 11

Lets scaffold Remove Crates, but scaffolds will not spawn, nor deform the terrain until the Builder is very close to the build site.

[xezon]

Game design wise it makes sense that Scaffolds should not make things disappear. We already removed the ability for Scaffolds to remove Money Crates. It would be logical to have it not remove Scrap Crates as well. The reason players use Scaffolds here is because it gives them a boost against GLA, as they avoid the enemy to get stronger units. I think this is mainly important for China, because it struggles against GLA's mobility. We would need to figure out if its detrimental to Gameplay if such bug is fixed, as it appears a few players feel very strongly in favor of Scaffold Abuse, but probably only because China is weaker without it.

I do not think we need to change GameReplays fair play rules. They are unrelated to this Project.

[ReLaX82]

First point: I do think that scrap deny is wanted because it adds depth and alöso balances. BUT, I do think most like it undependant on game balance, just because its a skill-part, so it will harm gameplay in their minds.

2nd point: We need to have such discussion as if fair play rules allow it and we say it shouldn't be allowed you cant do a patch for both scenarios. Also I highly think this question should be ansered by a PRO group asap.

[Jundiyy]

I think scrap deny should stay as part of the game, most players accept it and it does bring more fun/micro into the game.

[ReLaX82]

Don't you think we should ask a few Pros? Whatever I seek input in here as well.

[DoMiNaToRuk2]

Most pros are fine with it.

you remove this and you’ll have to start balance changes unnecessarily. IMO all changes must be necessary only

[Stubbjax]

Scrap-denying is a terrible mechanic for several reasons:

• There is no possible counterplay - the opponent can place a scaffold to delete your scrap from anywhere at any time, and there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it
• There is very little skill involved in deleting scrap - just place a scaffold over it and it's gone
• Being presented with a reward for it to be then taken away has the psychological effect of punishment and makes players feel cheated
• It has huge impact potential - the act of scrap-denying can completely change the outcome of a match
• It makes no logical sense and is completely counterintuitive (the game is clearly not meant to be played this way)

Scrap is a major element of GLA gameplay, and to have that element almost entirely subverted via a completely unrelated building placement mechanic feels like an insult to the players who encounter it.

[DoMiNaToRuk2]

There are ways to counter scrap deny vs gla and USA, by placing your own scaffold to block theirs. You can also force fire and make them lose 400-600 depending what they place down.

also scrap deny does require skill and is not easy unless you’ve prepared and practiced for it and have fast hands.

A lot of false statements by stubbjax

[xezon]

Actually scrap scaffolding can be punished by putting one of your units on guard mode near the scraps. If opponents puts scaffold, it will remove scrap, but unit will instantly attack building and likely kill it, because there is at least 10 frame latency until building can be cancelled. In practice, will be more frames.

That is not true for GLA Demo Trap scaffold though, because that is invisible.

But yeah, considering this bug has been not used until 2017 or so and no one cared for it till then, it is evidence that this is counter-intuitive and not part of game design.

[Stubbjax]

A lot of false statements by stubbjax

Which statements were false? The two out of six which you barely refuted? I fail to see how you can ever reliably block someone else's scrap-deny with your own scaffold without denying the scrap yourself. I also fail to see how placing a scaffold down can be considered skillful. Do you believe scrap-denying is good design?

Actually scrap scaffolding can be punished by putting one of your units on guard mode near the scraps.

This is probably the only good and reliable thing players can do, and even that is still only reactive rather than preventative.

[DoMiNaToRuk2]

• you said it’s easy. Wrong. Zero hour is an easy game. But scrap denying is one of its most difficult aspects, always needing a dozer numbered and having the speed to clear it instantly, expert players know about scrap deny so will keep their tech next to a truck which is nearly impossible to scrap deny as it will instant pick up. If it’s so easy, let’s see 10 of your replays be experts where you denied all the scrap?

• you said impossible to stop scrap deny. Wrong again. Guard as I mentioned, but also if you are playing vs china or USA where they need to place a bunker or barracks on it to delete it. You can place your own “anti scrap deny” demo traps to the side of the scrap which stops the enemy placing their scaffold. Again increasing skill level coz it’s very difficult to do.

I guess you like super techs running around your base at the 3 minute mark wrecking your base, OR you don’t like that and want to nerf quads techs and marauders all to make reminding scrap deny a good move. Which it won’t coz u can’t change all those key units without pissing whole community off.

If anyone touches techs quads or marauders in a big way, I probably won’t be playing anymore

[DoMiNaToRuk2]

Rage did a pro tip topic on gamereplays once called anti scrap deny pro tip. Maybe you can find the topic

[xezon]

~~I think for Game Patch it is safest to leave it as is for now, and revisit it once we can do something about scaffold bugs with Thyme.~~ Then we can properly wipe all bugs and think about options to compensate for the fix of this particular aspect of scaffolding bug.

[ReLaX82]

I am totally against to postpone this critical decesion.

Noone wants to do a 2nd Version after Putting So much effort in Version 1.

[xezon]

It's possible to disable Scaffold Bug, so that Scraps do not disappear under scaffolds. But we will likely not be able to build a replacement feature now that allows player to remove Scraps by some other functionality. I believe. Would have to summon @alanblack166 or @commy2 to provide more qualified insight on INI possibilities.

Personally I am ok with Scrap fix or no fix. It's only a handful of players that need this bug. The vast majority of players don't use this bug and will not care about it. So at the end of the day those who abuse bug will adapt to Majority or keep playing retail game.

[Stubbjax]

you said it’s easy. Wrong. Zero hour is an easy game. But scrap denying is one of its most difficult aspects, always needing a dozer numbered and having the speed to clear it instantly, expert players know about scrap deny so will keep their tech next to a truck which is nearly impossible to scrap deny as it will instant pick up. If it’s so easy, let’s see 10 of your replays be experts where you denied all the scrap?

It seemed really easy when I've used it vs experts in 3v3. And I'm certainly nowhere near wowed or amazed when a scaffold appears out of the blue on some scrap I'm about to collect. I tend to reserve those reactions for demonstrations of actual skill, such as disabling four units with a single EMP Patriot volley, killing a Humvee with a Supply Truck, etc.

you said impossible to stop scrap deny. Wrong again. Guard as I mentioned, but also if you are playing vs china or USA where they need to place a bunker or barracks on it to delete it. You can place your own “anti scrap deny” demo traps to the side of the scrap which stops the enemy placing their scaffold. Again increasing skill level coz it’s very difficult to do.

Guard mode is not preventative. I also said that it is impossible to reliably stop scrap-deny. The opponent always has the option of placing a scaffold that is roughly the size equivalent of the scrap, and in that case there is no way to stop it with your own.

It also seems as if you're suggesting increasing skill level can only be a good thing, which is completely false. What if the game was changed so that players had to manually tell their supply collectors to collect again after every drop off? How about if units never automatically attacked, and each attack had to be manually ordered? In fact, what if we just straight-up removed all automation? This would surely increase the skill level, but obviously not in a good way. Why do you think that would be?

I guess you like super techs running around your base at the 3 minute mark wrecking your base, OR you don’t like that and want to nerf quads techs and marauders all to make reminding scrap deny a good move. Which it won’t coz u can’t change all those key units without pissing whole community off.

If anyone touches techs quads or marauders in a big way, I probably won’t be playing anymore

Au contraire - I like acquiring those units and wrecking my opponents' bases! But that is completely beside the point. I'm not advocating for the bug's removal as you're suggesting; I'm merely explaining why it's a terrible mechanic.

[DoMiNaToRuk2]

So you want to remove scrap deny because you like getting a super tech at the 3 minute mark and winning a game vs china by 4-5 minutes max.

Thanks for the answer!

[Stubbjax]

So you want to remove scrap deny because you like getting a super tech at the 3 minute mark and winning a game vs china by 4-5 minutes max.

Thanks for the answer!

No.

[MTKing4]

Totally agree with stubbjax, having an inaccessible exploit/bug that is being used to measure skill is nothing more than an expert monopoly that rewards whoever been playing the game the longest (+10 years) and not actual skill, we need to have a clear path that players can follow and actually learn and improve so that we can have more players, there's a lot of talented players out there, and they are being hurdled by these unintuitive bugs that they can find no reliable source of learning to get better, if we really want this game to grow, this is the right way.

This is the main reason why we see less and less experts in the game, the game mechanics at the moment for a new player are not clear at all,

Yes it affects ballance of techs/mauraders, but that doesn't mean those can't be fixed in a more elegant and appropriate way, i say instead of arguing to keep a bug maybe help find an alternative that would be much more reliable for ballance than scrap deny (especially when scrap spawns in an unbuildable area like china supply trucks which happens quite a lot and is a free super tech gift (cmon be reasonable you know you can't scrap deny that)

i for instance liked the idea of other armies can delete scrap from the enemy by picking it up themselves. But they don't benefit from it themselves

Any other suggestions?

[ReLaX82]

In one game I tend to drive the truck to a free field to be able to scrap deny. Otherwise you need you dozer on a key to build a gatcannon if you have money.

[MTKing4]

If it was a perfect supply (how any pro player would place it) you can't fit a Gatling cannon there

[ReLaX82]

Oh yes, you can 100% sure. Hope we are talking about the same stuff.

A China GatlingCannon for 1200$ can fit between supply dock and china supply easily.

[DoMiNaToRuk2]

I have used gat cannon to scrap deny many times before. And usually lost the 1200 because the technical manages to one shot it instantly. Maybe when retaliation is on the technical kills it in an instant. Losing trucks and 1200 causes a loss FYI

[MTKing4]

Oh yes, you can 100% sure. Hope we are talking about the same stuff.

A China GatlingCannon for 1200$ can fit between supply dock and china supply easily.

My bad, i wanted to test to be sure but sicne you have then that clears it, still, it doesn't take away from the fact that it's a bad move as it's quite a risk not to mention players early game would be spamming units and not float that much

I have used gat cannon to scrap deny many times before. And usually lost the 1200 because the technical manages to one shot it instantly. Maybe when retaliation is on the technical kills it in an instant. Losing trucks and 1200 causes a loss FYI

THAT'S why china needs a better alternative

[xezon]

It's not satisfying to read China needs to risk 1200 $ or let enemy get scrap, both resulting in potential loss. China shouldn't have such bad odds to begin with. Let's fix China weakness and then revisit Scrap Bug. Best case, Scrap Bug is no longer necessary for balance if China becomes better.

[ImTimK]

Just thinking outside the box, but if China had prop tower available after wf, then it can also be used as tiny/cheap scaffold.

[ReLaX82]

Or a barricade after WF which is 50$ only which makes it quite easy.

[ReLaX82]

Or a smaller bunker Version Holding 2 ths only which also allows easier closing of a flank.

[xezon]

Haha. Designing game around bugs is the last thing we should try. Instead not relying on bugs is safest approach. As for the skill ceiling argument for Scrap Bug: That time that is taken away for placing and cancelling scaffolds can be invested into other aspects of the game, such as managing defensive and offensive tasks.

Maybe in the future we could have a different feature that offers reward for micro management. Whatever that would be.

[ReLaX82]

I dont think the overall opinion can be much clearer at this point, see here: https://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=1059560&st=0

Would be a huge and disrespectful change if the majority including Pros say DO NOT CHNANGE.

I am out of the whole discussion of 1.04+ if that point is treated like that without listening.

[ImTimK]

Been thinking a little more about scrap (deny) and had an idea to rebalance scraps and possibly even add a bit of depth to the game.

What if we design two different types of scraps?

• One type would be the "weapon scrap" and is obtained when killing an armed vehicle, this scrap literally upgrades the weapon of your vehicle.
• The second type would be the "armor scrap", this one is obtained when killing a unarmed vehicle like Dozers and Trucks. It simply improves the armor of your vehicle.

With this idea we go back in time a little where scrap deny wasn't invented yet. We were fine all those years no? Except that China was weaker ofcourse since it was too easy to scrap up your Techs and other units. The idea will make it more challenging to obtain these scraps.

Also to fully upgrade your vehicle (weapon + armor) you need to collect 4 scraps now. This will also slightly counter the increased snowball effect now that scraps can't be denied anymore.

Btw, the 3D model assets are already be in the game right? Cause it would be cool if there's a distinct visual difference between the armor and weapon upgrade.