GeneralsGamePatch
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TheSuperHackers
Balance idea : Make a new upgrade for Paladin tank
Concept :
-Adding upgrade(s) in the War Factory or Strategy Center for Paladin tanks.
Reason for that idea :
-Paladin are completely useless in every game mod, except in competitive 1v1 to drop on GLA supplies. It needs significant buff, but not that could impact their niche yet strong current usage.
Goals :
-Making Paladin post upgrade usable in mid and lategame against Chinas meta compositions ( Gatling tanks, migs, ECM, infantry ).
-Making them a stronger choice than Avengers when anti air is not needed ; better lategame unit than Avengers against GLA ( Avengers would obviously remain stronger if you already have a strong Vee Army for the firespeed boost )
-To not make them much stronger, if at all, than they already are in early game against GLA ( drop ), hence the upgrade idea.
-To make sure they won't become an unfair unit against certain matchups.
Suggestions :
-The main upgrade should be about making their PDL laser stronger, both offensively and defensively. The PDL effect should remain weaker than avenger's in that regard, but way stronger than it currently is. Also shouldn't delete Scud missiles etc like Avengers do.
-The laser should be decent against Infantry but not completely OP ( significantly less effective than flashbangs as a counter to Infantry spam )
-Maybe allows Laser general to build them aswell.
-Do not change, or only so slightly, their current cost and buildtime and do keep their gen point requirement.
Remarks :
-There should be no way they break any china matchup. If a slow ground army of Paladin and Avengers happens to become no match for known china compositions versus USA, they could still build Inferno, Nuke canon, or even Battlemasters and Overlords, as the Paladin spam would come as a replacement for the Vee spam which is what China currently tries to counter in that matchup.
-Powerlevel against mid-lategame GLA should be watched closely, but GLA tends to win this matchup at this stage of the game as of now, and it would still cost a gen point, so it will most likely be fine.
-Despite pre-upgrade Paladins would remain as useless as ever, there would still be a case to build some of them before being able to upgrade them ( other than Droping GLA ). That would simply be to stack up a bunch of Paladins while you are progressing toward your Strategy Center for the upgrade, so that the moment you get it, your army is already ready to benefit from it and fight ! ( extremely greedy and probably hardly viable in 10k 1v1 but could work in some others gamemods )
Note : this post has been fully edited as the discussion in the tread made the original idea evolve ( Mere firepower increase as an upgrade ).
- Related https://github.com/TheSuperHackers/GeneralsGamePatch/pull/777
- https://github.com/TheSuperHackers/GeneralsGamePatch/pull/2081
- https://github.com/TheSuperHackers/GeneralsGamePatch/pull/230
I'll suggest changes and stats from my project:
Paladin Tank
Improved into tier 2 tank with following changes:
- Requirement changed from General promotion science to Strategy Center
- Cost increased from 1100 to 1300
- Build time increased from 12 to 15s
- HP increased from 500 to 600
- Composite Armor bonus increased from 100 to 120 HP (+20%)
- Damage increased from 60 to 85
- Attack range increased from 150 to 185
- Shell speed increased from 300 to 400 dist/s
- Vision range decreased from 150 to 144 (affects Guard radius)
- Experience Given (when killed) changed from 100/100/200/400 to 125/150/225/375
- Experience Required (for Veterancy) increased from 0/200/300/600 to 0/200/400/800
I'll suggest changes and stats from my project:
Paladin Tank Improved into tier 2 tank with following changes: - Requirement changed from General promotion science to Strategy Center - Cost increased from 1100 to 1300 - Build time increased from 12 to 15s - HP increased from 500 to 600 - Composite Armor bonus increased from 100 to 120 HP (+20%) - Damage increased from 60 to 85 - Attack range increased from 150 to 185 - Shell speed increased from 300 to 400 dist/s - Vision range decreased from 150 to 144 (affects Guard radius) - Experience Given (when killed) changed from 100/100/200/400 to 125/150/225/375 - Experience Required (for Veterancy) increased from 0/200/300/600 to 0/200/400/800
Making it strategy center dependant would remove the current early paladin drop strategy vs GLA, which would probably be controversial.
Your proposed changes could however be the result of an upgrade purchased on the strategy center.
I think you made them overpowered spam-able unit. Even in vanilla ZH, paladins are still pretty good. Yea, they need a buff, but not that massive.
Making it strategy center dependant would remove the current early paladin drop strategy vs GLA, which would probably be controversial.
That is a trolling move you barely ever see. Don't try to sell it as a real strategy.
Your proposed changes could however be the result of an upgrade purchased on the strategy center.
It's either a base change or nothing. This cannot be done via upgrade. You can replace the weapon, but it cannot be that great if a difference for no visual change. That's not in the spirit of the game. What about experience? Keep it as for a tier 1 while weapon is tier 2? Nope, can't change that. What about building time? Is it also a tier 1 for such powerful weapon? Nope.
You're trying to jam too much into some new upgrade, this won't fly. The concept needs to change. China has a tier 2 tank - Overlord, and no number of buffs to Battlemaster will make it better or compatible because the base line is higher. That's the point of tier unit system in RTS.
USA already has a tier 1 tank - Crusader. Paladin, just like Marauder is stuck in troll land where it offers too few benefits to invest a promotion point. If you remove the promotion point - you delete the Crusader and have a too powerful tier 1 tank in mass.
So a tier 2 is the only viable way to go - get rid of promotion requirement, buff stats, require Strat.
It's either a base change or nothing. This cannot be done via upgrade. You can replace the weapon, but it cannot be that great if a difference for no visual change. That's not in the spirit of the game. What about experience? Keep it as for a tier 1 while weapon is tier 2? Nope, can't change that. What about building time? Is it also a tier 1 for such powerful weapon? Nope.
You're trying to jam too much into some new upgrade, this won't fly. The concept needs to change. China has a tier 2 tank - Overlord, and no number of buffs to Battlemaster will make it better or compatible because the base line is higher. That's the point of tier unit system in RTS.
USA already has a tier 1 tank - Crusader. Paladin, just like Marauder is stuck in troll land where it offers too few benefits to invest a promotion point. If you remove the promotion point - you delete the Crusader and have a too powerful tier 1 tank in mass.
So a tier 2 is the only viable way to go - get rid of promotion requirement, buff stats, require Strat.
Right about your specific changes proposal to not really be transposable in a simple upgrade.
I do not necessarly agree with your others points.
-Paladins would be less efficient than Crusaders ( taking into account their cost and build time ) at fighting others tanks and would only come to be more valuable if we account for migs/rocket shots in the ennemy composition.
-One sometime needs only one or two/three Crusaders to deal against China and not build a whole army of those. Paladins, needing a gen point and an upgrade, would be a way bigger commitment to actually build many and many of them.
-One could stack up a few Paladins in early game ( weak ) only to upgrade them at some point and get a power spike, that could become a greedy strategy on its own.
-The promotion point would still be needed.
For all those reasons I don't think they would take over Crusaders completely.
That is a trolling move you barely ever see. Don't try to sell it as a real strategy.>
I strongly disagree. It's not the most common but see enough play at the highest level of 1v1 ( keep in mind only USA v can do that, therefore it seem more rarely used than it actually is ).
China has a tier 2 tank -Overlord, and no number of buffs to Battlemaster will make it better or compatible because the base line is higher. That's the point of tier unit system in RTS
Battlemasters with upgrades generally compete with Overlords and both have their specifics use too. That is a whole different topic but right now it is like this :
-Tank battlemasters are generally way better than Emperor Tanks in ground battles but Emperors are still good because they are usable against USA and can resist strong zone dammages such as Nukecanon and stuffs.
-Nuke battlemasters with isotop is a very good lategame option against GLA, especially stealth that has no scud launcher. I believe it's also good in TF games.
-Battlemasters, even vanilla ones, do more than Overlords in big fights, however they are way more vulnerable to strong AoE explosions and get outranged by many things. They also like to have one single Overlord to boost them with speaker tower.
I don't see it becoming any more viable if the promotion requirement stays. It's a crutch that keeps Paladin slightly better than Crusader. Have a Crusader upgrade that adds pdl and it's literally the same tank, can even swap skins.
I want to have a similar tier approach that China has, that's it.
Battlemaster is preferred due to mobility, especially given THREADS vehicles cannot move backwards. The only exception is Nuke. Yet, regards of upgrades, 1 OL > 4 BMs. I don't want to have the same huge proportion for Paladin, rather have it cheaper, but compatible to 2 Crusaders.
I mean I would love to see it spammed as a main battle unit (at any stage really), I think the original devs even intended it to be, along with Crusaders. It's just a controversial topic as USA as a whole would become too strong if you buff them, plus many people won't like to combine it with a Vee nerf. Therefore I would stay closer to the original and do smaller buffs. I personally like these:
- Same composite armor boost as Crusader.
- Increase PDL ROF to match GLA's RPG's ROF.
I'm afraid that even cutting down cost/build time will make it too OP already, perhaps it could be considered to only match the build time with the Crusader and keep it more expensive for it's PDL.
I guess an exclusive late game buff could be an idea, but I think @FireRainVhas valid point about the balance between Crusaders and Paladins.
The thing is, you don't want to make it better than a Crusader Tank, you want to keep balance between the two. The main idea of Paladin Tanks that they have the PDL laser, but cost more.
The thing is, you don't want to make it better than a Crusader Tank, you want to keep balance between the two. The main idea of Paladin Tanks that they have the PDL laser, but cost more.
So if Paladin is no better than Crusader, who would build it if nobody builds Crusaders? XD
If the difference between two is "one has PDL, another one is cheaper" - it won't change a thing.
Let's be fair with ourselves here, regardless of what we suggest for Paladin, until Missile Defenders, Tank Hunters and RPGs fire missiles like machine guns - it won't matter. No one will build a "Crusader with PDL" if it runs into a wall of missiles while being slow and outranged. Even in groups.
The only one Paladin does well against is the Scorpion Tank basically.
Well, I kinda agree that if the game was first released today it would be nice to have Paladin and Crusader to be two very different units. But it's gona be difficult to make people swallow that one and would be a big balance challenge that we don't need right now.
My idea with the upgrade is to mostly make them a good standard counter to china V current midgame compositions ( Gatling tank, ECM, migs and infantry), and I think it's fine if they become as simple as a "better crusader" post-upgrade since it's gona cost one gen point and one upgrade, and crusaders would still be better to fight more straight forward units composition ( such as pure gatling tank and ecm spam and nothing else ) on top of being better early game.
However it's true that with nothing but a small firepower increase like I first suggested, they would still need to be combined with avengers anyway, and that their own pdl and migs resistance would be very anecdotal compared to classic crusaders because the avengers already provide that anyway and you would always need avengers to make paladin work in mid and late game in about any scenario.
So what if the upgrade consisted mostly on making their laser on a way higher level, both offensively and defensively ? Basically allowing you to not build many, if any, avengers when you only want some pdl effect, so that the avenger remain an anti-air specialisation above all ( it's still would likely be worth it to slide at least one in a paladin composition for the firespeed increase but not mandatory at least and definitely not 3 + of them )
Post-upgrade Paladin would then become decent ( not OP ) against infantry and resilient against rocket shots in general ( the pdl should definitely still be weaker than avenger's, but not all that much weaker ). USA v would then build many avengers only to actually deal with air units, or if they want to save a general point while needing anti rocket for their slow ground army.
Paladins then would notably also be a better option than avengers to fight late game GLA ( which tends to own USA at this stage of the game, so not a bad change ) and a fine unit against china on migs or Inf general if combined with the right others units.
What about this ?
Main post edited to sum up that idea.
state wise the crusader and paladin have very similar states, with the paladin having an extra laser that make it tank more missiles coming it way.
at that point the laser point defense should have been a per unite upgrade add-on to their base tank instead of an entire new unit.
USA also have 3 units behind general promotion points which stinks (Paladin, Pathfinder, Stealth Fighter), I think they should get the Paladin for free being exclusive to vanilla USA and it is not a good starter tank in $10k matches.
I sometimes get them playing vs GLA, but pathfinders tend to be a more attractive choice to spend a point in.
youtube: https://youtu.be/iILoMFQUWik?si=0a-Ss0qnttPfv_r9
I lean more to slightly buffing the Paladin. Composite buff and PDL matching the rocket guys is good. Maybe generally buff all tanks fire rate and gun attack range slightly 10-15%?
Please consider: The Paladin is only available to one faction. If it is given to much of a special purpose, the other USAs will lack that purpose, which does not feel vanilla. Also, any buffed Paladin should go equal to the Laser Crusader, or the Laser Paladin would need to be introduced, which is too much of a change.
Tanks were never the meta in ZH and cannot be buffed too much for this reason. The PDL on the Paladin was meant to counter Scorpion Rockets, close infantry (Ambush), Tomahawk/SCUDs and maybe prevent MiGs from creating a firestorm. They do their job in this regard, even if the Avenger is the better option when spamming the Paladin is not possible.
Promotion costs need to be balanced too. Paladin, Stealth Fighter, Marauder are much less useful than Pathfinder, SCUD, etc.
I think before changing the paladin even more we should at this stage fix the amour bug. The paladins needs to go from 100 to 200 armour to make the crusader and paladin die at the exact same time, But if we want to make sure the paladin always wins from a crusader we might have to make the armour 250.
By just changing the armour the paladin is getting a big buff. Also paladin spam vs Towvee spam is very strong the only issue with this are the pilots tanking too many shells. So we should also nerf the armour of pilots towards tank shells and rockets. but only from the pilot. since it takes 15 shells to kill the pilot. Reducing it to 8 or 7 might be the way to go.
Paladin and sniper spam vs GLA is already strong, since scudlauncher rockets can be deflected and so can the scorpion rockets. The only bad thing here is the price and build time of paladins.
But with the armour bonus of the paladin and pilot nerf to the pilot would make this units so much more use full.
Anything else we should not change yet before proper testing.
