GeneralsGamePatch
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TheSuperHackers
USA Alpha Aurora Damage Output
So overall the explosion radius and ability to one-shot any vehicle in the game shouldn't be nerfed.
However, imo Overlords and Airfields should be exceptions to that rule. These are extremely valuable targets (especially full airfields) that have no way to avoid a hit at all, it just feels cheap and too OP/game-changing.
Not sure how to achieve this, whether there's any headroom to lower the Alpha's damage output without nerfing it's overall performance? Or whether it's possible for Overlords/Airfields to have a special type of resistance vs Alpha bombs?
I would not change this. Superweapon General is already struggling enough as is.
At the stage of the game where SW already has Alpha's and can take out these targets, it usually struggles no longer, in fact most of time the tables have turned 180 degrees when this happens.
Add the cheaper 800 Vees and opponents like China and Nuke have no chance whatsoever anymore, even the less accessible Nuke Migs offer no hope.
It just feels wrong to wipe an 8k+ investment with one click, it's pretty much China's entire lifeline.
It would also a some more strategical depth if these targets survive at low HP, as it requires either two alpha's (still worth the trade if you lose both) or another combo to take out these targets.
The only thing I would change about Aurora is its invulnerability on lock on. Making it vulnerable will give opponents a chance to overpower Aurora spam by unit spam. So for example being able to overpower a single Aurora with 10 Gattling Tanks would allow the China to protect its valuable units, even if 10 Gattlings are harder to acquire than a single Aurora.
- #655
Removing the invulnerability is the only way to get the Aurora off the banned unit list (No Superweapon, No Demobike, No Aurora). Decreasing damage or radius will never achieve this.
Is it desirable to change the base game to get it off this list though?
Same as your gameplay modifiers/handicaps idea, I think it's much better to offer a feature/option to restrict specific units/upgrades/buildings.
When a large portion of players (noobs and semis) ban certain units (Aurora, Demobike) then this indicates that something is wrong with these units. For Aurora the design problem is fairly obvious: it cannot be killed while it attacks. Therefore banning it is reasonable. Ideally no unit is practically unstoppable.
Getting the Aurora off the universially agreed banned unit list would be a worthwhile achievement I do think yes.
Yet it's a nonsense list based on lack of knowledge, it's an invalid complaint for anyone who slightly attempts to understand the balance concepts of a strategy game. Even the lowest semi tournies on gamereplays have no rules.
It's not reasonable at all to patch these units/upgrades/buildings to such extent so that noobs accept them. People who play these rules just (want to) play a different game, where everybody chills, bunkers, sits back and makes second eco. It's simple logic that SW is alot better at this in the base game.
Offering options/features to let people play however they want is reasonable though and exactly what you expect a modern game to offer.
I have to agree with Xezon here, that's the only way to fix this issue, keep in mind that even experts ban Auroras in FFAs, Ask dominator, he'll tell you. He plays pro rules most of the time and that's telling something
I do think removing or maybe reducing its invulnerability somehow will be the most beneficial outcome for us even for experts, sure they wouldn't like it at first, but after buffing SWG in other ways where it's not a desperate alpha rusher anymore they'll come to like it a lot more than before
What I'm thinking of is maybe that it can still outrun rockets, but not bullets or lasers, (Seriously like lasers are at the speed of light yet it's faster than that? come on)
Or maybe all Units can miss, but not defenses, think that option is better to put more emphasis on defences like patriots and make other USAs competitive with lategame SWG
I think Hypersonic Aurora would just need to be able to tank a lot of damage and be destructible when flying over an absolute fortress. Basically it should be strong enough to be able to attack big defenses without problems but not fly over an abundance of Turrets to enter the enemy base as if its nothing.
Not clear to me if this is possible to do from INI.
The only exposed setting I can see is SneakyOffsetWhenAttacking.
Behavior = JetAIUpdate ModuleTag_07
OutOfAmmoDamagePerSecond = 10% ; amount of damage to take per SEC (not per frame) when out of ammo
; note that it's expressed as a percent of max health, not an absolute
TakeoffDistForMaxLift = 0% ; larger numbers give more lift sooner when taking off
TakeoffPause = 500
MinHeight = 5
SneakyOffsetWhenAttacking = -20.0 ; this is how far behind us people aim when we are in attack mode
AttackLocomotorType = SET_SUPERSONIC
AttackLocomotorPersistTime = 100 ; we start slowing down almost immediately
AttackersMissPersistTime = 2000 ; but remain untargetable fer a bit longer
ReturnForAmmoLocomotorType = SET_SLUGGISH
ReturnToBaseIdleTime = 10000 ; if idle for this long, return to base, even if not out of ammo
End
I would have expected that there is a way to set a new ArmorSet during attack.
Ask dominator, he'll tell you. He plays pro rules most of the time and that's telling something
Dominator:
If you are asking about the ffas I play, yes they are banned in that. But actually I find it fun to allow them and play no rules but most guys won’t accept that It’s hard to change Aurora now, of course when making a new game you don’t go and add a hypersonic indestructible wrecking machine as it’s way OP but also it became iconic in zero hour now after 20 years. If people suddenly couldn’t kill an air field I don’t know what people will say
If this unit was not banned, then this unit would be practically much more useful. Paradoxically, by nerfing the Aurora the right way it would actually become a better unit. Think about it.
Let's admit, the only reason the Alpha is trully OP is the damage output vs EVERYTHING except air units. Vanilla Aurora proofs this, without the secondary blast it's underpowered and overpriced. Now take away it's hypersonic ability, it got nothing left going for it...
You might think the teleportation mechanic (that's basically what it is) is completely broken, however it's all about the trading concept. It's worth trading an Alpha ($2K, 200XP) vs many different kinds of targets worth way more than itself. The vAurora has to pick off several targets and survive before it becomes worth the investment.
Btw, there are more similar mechanics in the game that should be considered broken aswell. Quick examples: China Artillery Genpower: unstoppable 1 click destruction. GLA Ambush: Instant destruction, even level 1 vanilla ambush can take out every single Aurora on an airfield. USA Specter Gunship: Pretty much invincible before it reaches its target. Tunnel networks: Instant healing and teleportation around the map.
We cannot compare Apples with Oranges here. You try to compare Aurora to other things which are not identical to the Aurora. While both China Artillery and Aurora are invincible on the attack, the Aurora can be spammed, whereas the Artillery cannot be spammed. This is an important distiction.
There is no discrimination of the regular Aurora when it comes to bans. The regular Aurora is equally banned, because it can kill target in the enemy base without stopping.
The core issue is that this unit cannot be reasonably stopped. It really is that simple. Being unable to stop a unit on the attack while it simply flies over hundreds of defenses is a major frustration. It is therefore very reasonable to ban this unit from bunker games, because it is the Bunker breaker that just makes any efforts to defend the base useless.
It is apparent that you do not agree it being banned for this reason, but this is the unfortunate but logical reality and ignoring this aspect does not solve the problem. Nerfing the Alpha Aurora will just make Super Weapon General weaker, but the Aurora Jet will remain banned in Noob and Semi matches afterwards and the Aurora will remain an underused unit because if you use it you will be banned from matches too.
It is indeed the supersonic speed is the issue as Vanilla auroras are still used to knock down your power or snipe your Superweapons without you being able to do anything about it, that's the main reason it's banned
You both clearly don't understand the trading and balance concepts I've explained so far.
No rules ffa and 2v2v2 is also balanced, but not how people want to play the game, because they got the wrong idea like you guys do.
Changing the regular game to accomodate for players who play irregular gamemodes just isn't right.
I think you misunderstand position. I do not think Aurora is overpowered in Pro game. King Raptor is much more dangerous in comparison. I am just explaining why Aurora is banned in Noob and Semi games. You look at Aurora from Pro perspective and therefore are oblivious to the fundamental issue. Addressing the invincible design would have less detrimental impact in Pro matches and more positive impact in Noob and Semi matches.
Instead you suggest to nerf Alpha Aurora for Superweapon General, which is already one of the saddest General in Pro matches, when essentially would make Superweapon even weaker in Pro matches and would change nothing in Noob and Semi matches.
Addressing the invincible design would have less detrimental impact in Pro matches and more positive impact in Noob and Semi matches.
Haven't seen one suggestion yet where I can see this outcome.
Instead you suggest to nerf Alpha Aurora for Superweapon General, which is already one of the saddest General in Pro matches, when essentially would make Superweapon even weaker in Pro matches and would change nothing in Noob and Semi matches.
What I'm suggesting is a relavively small nerf, to make the overall balance better.
Another question, what about SW's? Do their core mechanics also need to be reworked so they are accepted in pro and noob matches?
Haven't seen one suggestion yet where I can see this outcome.
It is logical. In Pro matches there simply rarely are huge defensive lines waiting to stop the Aurora. Nor do players use Aurora's much to begin with, because Humvee spam is enough for USA.
What I'm suggesting is a relavively small nerf, to make the overall balance better.
Balance what? Make Superweapon General weaker because it dominates other factions?
Another question, what about SW's? Do their core mechanics also need to be reworked so they are accepted in pro and noob matches?
This question implies that you see the invicibility of Aurora as a core mechanic, as opposed to it being a fast plane with a big bomb. Does it need invincibility to be useful? Aka would this unit be useless if it could not move over 100 enemy Laser Turrets for unlimited time?
There is an option to limit number of Superweapons in the Match Room. Superweapon Design is irrelevant for Aurora design.
It is logical. In Pro matches there simply rarely are huge defensive lines waiting to stop the Aurora. Nor do players use Aurora's much to begin with, because Humvee spam is enough for USA.
That's the thing, all money goes into useless defenses and they don't know how to properly win over SWG. SWG breaks their own strategy, thus they don't like it. I also do have some understanding though, it's kind of boring when everyone just camps and spams SW every game.
Actaully, also in pro matches you would see 'AOD' strategies more often than you think, because GLA can actually outcamp SW if done properly (usually requires more money/map control), since Scudstorms are a whole lot stronger. Only one Scud has to hit and GLA has great chances to win from there.
My very last game I played happens to be a good example of this: https://gentool.net/data/zh/2023_04_April/13_Thursday/SUP%5bExiLe%5d_8C3195F04A3E/18-24-42_2v2_SUPExiLe_BSToNED_BaMBoo_MoNsTeR.rep
Had the other GLA not invested in useless Buggies but rather in Scuds aswell, it would be very challenging for SWG to prevent getting Scud'ed. Without Alpha's it would be completely impossible actually, while it's supppossed to be better at camping.
Balance what? Make Superweapon General weaker because it dominates other factions?
I already answered and motivated my answer to this, but I'll explain again: SW has different stages of when it's weak and strong, you very well know this. My suggestion only weakens SWG at the stage it's very strong and a bit too much so. Especially now with the cheaper Vees (which makes SWG stronger in all stages).
This question implies that you see the invicibility of Aurora as a core mechanic, as opposed to it being a fast plane with a big bomb. Does it need invincibility to be useful? Aka would this unit be useless if it could not move over 100 enemy Laser Turrets for unlimited time?
There is an option to limit number of Superweapons in the Match Room. Superweapon Design is irrelevant for Aurora design.
Aurora is a mini SW, it's the exact same concept. You click and destroy something at the other side of the map and both are spammable.
The option to limit SW's is good (though still not enough for noobs because they don't want any). Anyways, more advanced options is exactly what a modern game needs! So anyone can play the game how they want. It's literally the best solution for everyone.
You both clearly don't understand the trading and balance concepts I've explained so far.
No rules ffa and 2v2v2 is also balanced, but not how people want to play the game, because they got the wrong idea like you guys do.
Changing the regular game to accomodate for players who play irregular gamemodes just isn't right.
That is a wild Assumption to make, what you stated is that the invincibility is not the reason the auroras are banned which is totally incorrect, the only reason you don't see Vanilla auroras as much is its cost, and the fact that it's not very good against moving targets, but it still very strong vs buildings, and no this isn't to cater noob games, it reads to me that you hate to admit that it's a broken unit in all gamemodes even in 1v1, while not as effective, it's still very obnoxious if you know how to use it, for example, you can hunt the enemy dozers and CC and he will have no response whatsoever
This isn't about money investment, it's not fair because firstly it's uncountrable secondly it can still get away and you get to keep the unit
Let's compare it to other investment units that you throw money at the unit killing the enemy and losing the unit in the process: Bomb Truck, two main takeaways: 1- it can be countered 2- it's inevitable to die
So how does that compare to an Aurora? Do you really still think it's an investment if you keep the aurora? And the fact that it's sure shot?
There are many other examples in 1v1s that I'll try to mention here besides the dozer hunt
- Killing Oils
- Killing airfields
- Killing Superweapons
- Killing Power
- Killing Army Steal
- Killing Secondary Eco
All those are well over worth hitting with a ~$2000 Potential loss
Also you're wrong about the no rules FFAs, usually the SW if left untouched which tends to happen a lot on ffas they own the game
You both clearly don't understand the trading and balance concepts I've explained so far. No rules ffa and 2v2v2 is also balanced, but not how people want to play the game, because they got the wrong idea like you guys do. Changing the regular game to accomodate for players who play irregular gamemodes just isn't right.
That is a wild Assumption to make, what you stated is that the invincibility is not the reason the auroras are banned which is totally incorrect, the only reason you don't see Vanilla auroras as much is its cost, and the fact that it's not very good against moving targets, but it still very strong vs buildings, and no this isn't to cater noob games, it reads to me that you hate to admit that it's a broken unit in all gamemodes even in 1v1, while not as effective, it's still very obnoxious if you know how to use it, for example, you can hunt the enemy dozers and CC and he will have no response whatsoever
This isn't about money investment, it's not fair because firstly it's uncountrable secondly it can still get away and you get to keep the unit
It's all about investment, investing well is big part of why good players win more. Why make a fragile Aurora's that are easily lost instead of much more versatile Vees, or SDZ/SW?
Let's compare it to other investment units that you throw money at the unit killing the enemy and losing the unit in the process: Bomb Truck, two main takeaways: 1- it can be countered 2- it's inevitable to die
So how does that compare to an Aurora? Do you really still think it's an investment if you keep the aurora? And the fact that it's sure shot?
There are many other examples in 1v1s that I'll try to mention here besides the dozer hunt
1. Killing Oils
Need two and when you have stabilized well on a campy map it could be worth in the long run, IF you can make them return safely, otherwise just make 2 SDZ / 1 SW yourself. In most games Vees are the better more versatile investment.
2. Killing airfields
Also need two and can only be applied in same situation I described above. But yes, it's a very good kill if you kill all aircraft aswell. But again, there are safer investments.
3. Killing Superweapons
Most likely a trade and a bad one, $10k and 800xp+. 2 SW for yourself is much better.
4. Killing Power
This is a tactical move I very much like, if you time it correctly with a gamechanging base push or to desperately deny their SW usage. On it's own it's a bad trade.
5. Killing Army Steal
What is that?
6. Killing Secondary Eco
Again, only if you can return your aircraft safely it's worth, trading is definitely not. I only see SDZ's as worthy targets, they only need one hit, less risk. Why make multiple to take out Markets? Just invest in SDZ yourself, much safer.
All those are well over worth hitting with a ~$2000 Potential loss
Also you're wrong about the no rules FFAs, usually the SW if left untouched which tends to happen a lot on ffas they own the game
Strategical error to let SWG get big.
Bottom line is you will not be able to properly fix Aurora by just looking at it from Pro Player prespective. It is important to consider Noob and Semi Player perspective. They ban Aurora. Listen to why they ban it.
If you want to 'fix' it, the whole challenge is to come up with a redesign idea that will be accepted by pros and noobs, which I think is simply impossible. That's not shut down anything, keep coming with the suggestions. I mean, I even made my own suggestion in the other topic.
The best suggestion so far and by far is the rule customization idea.
Adding options to disable Aurora and similar units indicates that the unit design has failed. It would be a mistake to go this route.
Can see that perspective, but failing to be part of casual matches, just like it is now, is not so bad. Can't cater a whole game's design to casual gamers. It's what many modern games do, they don't make games like ZH anymore with learning curves.
But it's always good offering options and not to specifically disable aurora, but rather full customization to disable any unit/building/upgrade. Like if people want to play with Tanks only, they can do so. Could be very fun and interesting having this.
Like it would be sick if the gamelobby was webbased (like modern games using a launcher). That would probably the best way to implement such advanced features, if ever possible at all.
Survey comments:
remove aurora and demo bikes
Imbalance like: Aurora Alpha Nuke MIG Pathfinders are extremely strong
Aurora balance is welcome
if there was a fix that balanced the factions out more I would be happy, (like aurora's and nuke migs being very OP etc).
Make the aurora vulnerable to damage when targeting
So that you can deal a little damage to the Aurora while she is flying.
some factions really need to be rebalanced. For example, vanilla china should be raised, while aurora in SVG should be slightly fixed
SWG aurora are way too op and should be much more expensive or cheaper and nerfed by getting rid of the secondary explosion.
I really hate that all USA gameplay boils down to spamming humvees with missile defenders inside of them. And i really hate that USA has auroras. USA never uses tanks. Pls fix.
I am also very concerned about the situation with the USA and the Aurora aircraft in particular. A lot of problems from one aircraft, which can always pay for itself by causing damage. If full invincibility before the bomb is dropped is replaced by, say, 50% damage reduction, then it would make sense.
The only thing that i can think of that is most definitely unfair are the alpha auroras, but as soon as you put down a emp patriot, everyone targets you before you can even get auroras (this is talking about defcon ffa btw).