re-enable yoyo?

[hyder365]

The pgl.yoyo.org source was paused (in data/yoyo.org/update.json) due to the provider blacklisting t.co, which is required for clicking Twitter links. Pausing the update was a wise decision at the time, but I'd like to revisit the idea of enabling that list again. It would need an extra one-liner somewhere to remove t.co from the result, of course, but we're missing out on what I believe to be a good list otherwise. Any thoughts?

I would also extend this to @pgl directly: Would you consider removing t.co so more users and downstream lists can resume making use of your work?

[pgl]

I'm afraid not, sorry. If I removed t.co then I would also have to remove a lot of other bounce trackers.

If t.co is considered being used by "too many people" then where is the line? How many people have to complain before a domain is globally excluded? I don't know and I don't want to personally be responsible for that decision, so I leave it up to people using my list to decide. For myself I'll stick to some basic principles and hope it's useful for others.

The justification for not blocking t.co is that it's used by "too many people". In uBlockOrigin's case, the fear is that people will stop using uBO because it's annoying and people don't realise how easy it is to just click "Don't warn me again about this site". That's maybe true, marketing and user experience have to be considered in the end product. My own opinion is that I'd rather people were aware of the tracking that's going on and make the conscious decision to allow it, rather than it happen invisibly and not have an option to block it.... but that has to be balanced with the fact that you might end up losing users.

[hyder365]

@pgl In this case, it's an issue of unfortunate practicality for me. Blocking t.co makes Twitter very difficult to use. As far as I know, there isn't any way to get around their redirection without using a third party client to see the tweets' content directly. This would anger potentially millions of users.

If t.co is considered being used by "too many people" then where is the line?

Google search results also do the same kind of tracking and hijacking, but your list doesn't block google.com, so it would seem that's where you draw the line. In any case, thank you for taking the time to reply and explain your position and clarify it's still the same as before.

@StevenBlack so then I return to the original question: Would you consider re-enabling this otherwise nice list with a little post-processing to remove t.co?

[pgl]

@hyder365 Sure, so - add an exclusion for that domain? Do you not have an easy way to do that?

I include domains which are primarily used for ads or tracking. google.com is not primarily used for tracking, which is why it's not in my list. My inclusion policy is here: https://pgl.yoyo.org/as/policy.php

[hyder365]

@hyder365 Sure, so - add an exclusion for that domain? Do you not have an easy way to do that?

I'm currently using your list and StevenBlack's list, deduplicated and with t.co removed. It's not a problem for me personally. I'd just like a wider audience to have access to the additional domains on your list too. That's why I'm proposing its re-inclusion here. StevenBlack's list is arguably the most popular one overall and is included by default in PiHole.

I include domains which are primarily used for ads or tracking. google.com is not primarily used for tracking

Debatable :)

Thanks

[pgl]

Oh, hey, I just remembered - you can easily exclude domains from my list by using the skip query parameter: https://pgl.yoyo.org/as/formats.php#skip

Example: https://pgl.yoyo.org/adservers/serverlist.php?skip=101com.com,207.net

(Went into a bit of a rabbit hole here: I just went to check this and it wasn't working, because previously it was using the PHP [] array assignment format - this was due to caching, so I've changed it to support comma-separated values instead.)

[StevenBlack]

Interesting conversation Devon @hyder365 and Peter @pgl.

It's not that Twitter is used by too many people. It's that Twitter — like it or not — is vital in many circumstances.

🤔 maybe I should use the skip query parameter, as Peter suggests.

[hyder365]

maybe I should use the skip query parameter, as Peter suggests.

Any update?

[StevenBlack]

Hi Devon @hyder365 yup, gonna do this, just need to sequence this because I've been travelling for the past while and that has messed with my priorities.

[hyder365]

ping

[shunkica]

@StevenBlack This adlist added the click.discord.com domain to the blocklist which is preventing users from signing in to discord. (You must visit a link on this domain when signing in with a new device as part of 2step verification)

I have reported it to the list admin and this was the response:

click.discord.com is a tracker. If you're OK with it tracking you, then
choose Don't Warn Again. It's not preventing anything that doesn't have
an incredibly easy way provided to stop the block happening.

[pgl]

@shunkica

Click it. I dare you.

[shunkica]

@pgl Your use case is not the only use case that exists. There is nothing to click when the site is blocked by upstream DNS using this list.

[pgl]

@shunkica I mean, that's true, but if you're using a service that doesn't allow you to easily add exclusions to your allow list, then I would suggest reconsidering that service. Blocks are going to happen that don't apply to every single person, the ability to bypass them is a fairly important feature.

[hyder365]

OP here. @StevenBlack I would like to rescind my suggestion for the @pgl list being re-added. Adding a one-time exception for t.co was not a big deal, but now I see it's going to be a recurring problem due to the maintainer's impractical attitude. I would never personally use discord at all, but now I have to add a second exception for the discord link for my users. Tomorrow it could be another, and another. The problem lies with the evil companies, no doubt, but this is the world we live in. Breaking basic functionality like this isn't acceptable for any setup with more than a single user. These lists are meant to be "set and forget" and not need constant babysitting.

[StevenBlack]

Hi @hyder365 thank you for those thoughts.

So we're clear: if Discord wants seamless service to their customers, it behooves THEM to behave ethically.

In other words, Discord is not special. We don't serve Discord, nor do we back this particular mode of operation.

The people we serve here are those who do not want be tracked. It's really that simple.