ReactiveDrop
New Weapon: EC-02 Stun Grenades
Modified prototype rifle alt-fire grenade as an equipment item. Since these would have less utility than freeze grenades, you'd get more of them.
I think 10 grenades is a bit too much. Probably 6 is a good number to make Stun Grenades useful enough.
Other than that in my opinion this item is good enough to be released and start gathering players' feedback. We could release one new weapon at a time and receive feedback and balance it out.
What are your thoughts on this @GmaOrange @jhh8 @vq00 @AutoGavy ?
main issue with balancing ammo count is power creep caused by freeze grenades, electric armor, firemines and to a lesser extent gas grenades, unless the plan is to have another inferior item used by bored pros at best and lost nubes at worst why'd I want 6 stun grenades to slow enemies down if I can have 5 freeze grenades to completely stop enemies (for longer than its description says)? does the electricity effect have any advantage over freeze at all? can't extinguish, can't null shield/tripod for sawing, parasites still jump... methinks 7-8 or no point ideally nerf freez/eca/fm but that's impossibiru because community will complain hard
8 seems like a good number, I don't see the point in having fewer, plus this item seems weak to me, maybe the impact area should be larger for it to be useful enough. The only benefit I currently see compared to freezing is that sometimes freezing an enemy can block the path and make you glitch above the enemies, but it's such a minor problem that it's not enough.
For me, you'd need at least 8 nades and a large enough area so that their usefulness isn't completely erased by the freeze nades. maybe it can kill para too ?
Having new equipment added just to be an inferior version of the freeze grenade with simply more charges feels like an underwhelming disappointment.
I believe it's a good idea for me to add onto what can be done instead if I were to disagree with said addition, so feel free to add onto them or just come up with anything else instead.
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First of all, if I were to make it something actually worthwhile as much as freeze grenades, we wouldn't need the more charges anymore, so we would be making them 5 charges as well.
For the role it serves, I am thinking about something like WB's tesla coil but throwable, with a shorter duration than a gas grenade. Duration, radius, and damage can probably scale with marine skill bonuses.
Upon impact, it creates a puddle of electricity, dealing 5 ticks of damage per second. I haven't done the math for it, but I think the damage should be able to:
- Instantly kill Parasites, Xenomites, and Buzzers (Making these a special case can possibly allow more flexibility for the exact damage).
- Kill any drone that stayed within the puddle throughout the majority of the duration of the electrical puddle.
- Weaken any large aliens that stayed within the puddle throughout the majority of the duration of the electrical puddle. Shieldbugs, for example, can probably have half of their health chipped away on Normal. Killing things isn't exactly its main job, so I think it's fine if on Brutal they do not do as much to the big aliens.
Of course, it's an electricity puddle. Naturally, the damage should apply tesla stun. The enemy types, who can be staggered, should be able to pinned hard enough to practically stay in place. The damage being enough to kill drones that were there within the area of effect is a nice bonus but it's not something that is intended to be counted on.
As for its friendly fire, it should deal enough damage to make it something you would want to stay away from if can be helped, but not enough to significantly cripple anyone who did end up staying within the area of effect. Definitely do NOT apply any stagger/stun to marines.
Cures infestation in the same fashion as ECA?
With all of above, we should be able to achieve in creating an equipment with the following traits:
- Area denial, as it's not a single instance thing like freeze grenades, but also doesn't steal the jobs of dedicated area denial equipment for it has a much shorter duration in exchange for the speed of use: for it being an impact grenade.
- An inferior alternative to freeze grenades without being strictly inferior to freeze grenades in all aspects. Due to its friendly fire, reckless use of this equipment can lead to unnecessary chip damage that may make the difference between life and death on higher difficulties. However, because it is not lethal enough to immediately cripple a healthy marine, it can be an interesting choice to have players trade their health for their lives, should it ever come to it.
- An ease of attention pressure for marines bringing dedicated area denial tools. For example, a Wolfe covering the flank can bring this tool to halt a horde coming right at him when he lacks area denial or AOE support. This is also an example of where this tool can be far superior to freeze grenades and ECA, as freeze grenades are not guaranteed to cover the whole horde, and ECA is meant to neglect the damage that is already being taken instead of preventing it altogether.
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What this can mean for every marine:
- Sarge
- Not enough to replace fire mines. This is just "another equipment to choose from" to him.
- Jaeger
- Not enough to replace fire mines. This is just "another equipment to choose from" to him.
- Wildcat
- Being the fastest marine means she can possibly shut off a dangerous spawn for a short period of time ahead of the entire team. By the time the stun grenade wears off, the team should either be ready for whatever's left of the spawn, or already skipped ahead. Alternatively, can trade health to get out of sticky situations, which should be avoided if possible due to small health pool, making chip damage possess larger impacts.
- Wolfe
- Useful tool for shutting off hordes for himself at the flank he covers, should he ever find himself lacking area denial or AOE support. Alternatively, can trade health to get out of sticky situations.
- Faith
- Not enough to replace gas grenades. However, it can be an alternative should she end up with a team that isn't capable of protecting her well.
- Bastille
- Not enough to replace gas grenades. However, it can be an alternative should he end up with a team that isn't capable of protecting him well.
- Crash
- Another equipment to choose from.
- Vegas
- If not playing the "chainsaw man" meta, this is just "another equipment to choose from" to him.
- Being the tip of the spear with that chainsaw, he can possibly shut off a dangerous spawn for a short period of time ahead of the entire team. AOE support can have their pressure eased and focus on more dangerous threats or reload if haven't already. Alternatively, can trade health to get out of sticky situations.
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This is just a concept I came up with without any prior experiments. Its behavior and balancing are very much subject to change. However, I think whatever we end up with, should it be good enough to become a thing, is far more exciting than just worse freeze grenades. More charges cannot justify a boring addition like this.
I am much more active on ASRD's Discord than Github, so if anyone wishes to discuss this concept of mine further, let me know there.
Edit: As already stated, the purpose of this post is a disagreement to stun grenades behave exactly the same as prifle's / stay as "inferior freeze grenades," rather than to propose making it into something else. In other words, I care more about seeing something more interesting, something different than prifle grenades, than seeing something implemented just like how I imagined what it can become. I am getting disagreements with zero explanations or follow-ups, so I believe it is safe to assume that all said disagreements I am receiving are in favor of keeping the stun grenades the same as prifle's / stay as inferior freeze grenades.
Standalone electro grenades ruin idea of special rifle. P-rifle is not super usefull atm and requires a buff (like yes maybe add 8nades there instead) So with this item p-rifle going to be just another boring gun. I feel this extra item can be used by sarge/crash/wolfe but crash already has it, for sarge it is more like a fun thing but not super usefull one (why stun horde if able to kill/freeze with real grenades?) and wolfe... guess fine but again we lose unique gun idea.
I agree with Orange, the idea of having new grenades as extras in the game delights me, but if it's to make an already weak weapon even less relevant, I find that sad. It's the same thing for the incandescent grenades and the Vindicator, although the Vindi is a much better weapon than the P-rifle, adding its extra alternate fire will inevitably make it less interesting.
And buff the vindi with more fire nade and a bad idea in my opinion, because the weapon is already good, only the prifle should benefit from it.
I think we should first think about bringing in some offmeta extras a little better before creating new ones.
Some of the additional ideas & suggestions collected from various chats:
- 8 grenades by default is suggested by many players
- Possibly add a ConVar for enabling making it a cluster stun grenade. This will allow it to be tested in challenges.
- Larger stun radius then the Freeze Grenade. Suggested here.
- 5 grenades total, but on impact grenade creates an electrified field that electrifies aliens in its radius but doesn't stuns them. Field lasts 5-10 seconds. Suggested here.
a lasting electrified field
Then how'd we later buff Tesla Coil if the lasting electricity field niche would be already taken over?
Those are just collected ideas. This doesn't mean they will be implemented. For now I think we need to add ConVars for clusters and for damage radius. This will allow to play with the values in challenges and not require a game update to playtest various settings.
Just FYI: we noticed that Stun Grenades (and probably p-rifle one) do 4 DMG of self damage on ASBI. We might want to reduce that to 1 like it is on usual difficulties. The grenade itself is set to do 1 dmg, but ASBI increases it to 4.
I want to confirm if my suggestion for the stun field is ever going to be bothered with, because it felt like that part has gone into radio silence.
Stun grenades from the p-rifle as an offhand literally went exactly as I expected it to be: A weaker alternative to freeze grenades. It can't compete with freeze grenades and it does not share the p-rifle stun nades' trait of not occupying the offhand slot.
Enemies up-close will still attack you regardless if they are electro-stunned, meaning if you use it on top of yourself (which is the most useful scenario it can have), you are going to need to spend additional charges if immediate threats are not taken care of.
If my suggestion is too overwhelming (which I do understand, but that was also why I specifically mentioned that it's open for discussion and subject to change), let me simplify the direction I am going toward: Stun nades leave electric field to serve as a more reactive version of tesla coils, at the cost of duration because it lasts much shorter than tesla coils. Now, being an inferior version of ice nades is justified because it has other jobs.
Like, what is the plan here? Will this idea just be disregarded because two people downvoted it with zero follow-ups?
Thank you for your suggestion! All feedback and ideas are much appreciated. The plan for stun grenades was the following:
- release them as is
- gather user input
- decide what to do next
Thank you for your suggestion! All feedback and ideas are much appreciated. The plan for stun grenades was the following:
- release them as is
- gather user input
- decide what to do next
Alright then. Once again I am very much open to discussion, as I have been with every input I have ever provided.