hs-bugs Kalecgos's effect is evaluated inconsistently with Nerubian Unraveler

Playing Kalecgos with Nerubian Unraveler already on board, gives one Non-0 cost card. Compare with the Prismatic Lens case in the comments below.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/bix99y/playing_kalecgos_with_nerubian_unraveler_already/

Playing Kalecgos with Nerubian Unraveler already on board gave me one Non-0 cost card

bze10yzdwav21

May 04 '19 09:05 10925

confirmed i tested it

https://imgur.com/a/32Qw7xs

before using kalecgos

discover

all spell cost 0 , discovered one cost 2 , real cost is 3

tested using the 2 mana spell to see if it was a graphic only bug ..

https://imgur.com/a/65l2bmA

execute 0 , shield block 2

turn later the same no mana cost change

used nerubian unraveler after kalecgos , got it from zola the gorgon both spell +2

used 4 mana shield block , execute cost increased to 6

May 04 '19 14:05 ceceita

Testing from @ceceita confirms it is order based. This is consistent with Prismatic Lens.

edit: Maybe this isn't the same as Prismatic Lens, because the generated cards seem to follow a different order than the cards in hand for the Unraveler case.

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/hearthstone/t/kalecgos-prismatic-lens-cost/4667

In one of my matches I played Kalecgos, but the cost of a spell I had in my hand was not reduced to 0 mana. Here’s how it happened: I played Prince Liam to replace certain cards in my deck with random legendaries (including Kalecgos and Blackhowl Gunspire), then on a later turn I played prismatic lens to draw and swap the costs of Time Out and Blackhowl Gunspire, then the turn after I played Kalecgos but my Time Out spell was still set to 7 mana instead of 0, despite not playing any other spells that turn. Is the Time Out spell meant to keep the cost of the minion it swapped with, or is it supposed to change to 0 mana because Kalecgos changes the first spell you play on each turn to 0?

Tested this with Jetz.

Prismatic Lens first still has the spell cost 0. Prismatic Lens second keeps the swapped cost. So it depends on the order played.

Someone from Blizzard would have to comment on if this behavior is intended.

Mage AAEBAf0EBO0F7wjvgAOKngMNrAH7AZwChQOrBJYFuQaMFKzCAu7TAqbwArfxAqSHAwA=

Paladin AAEBAaToAgLtBe8IDoQBvwH6AfsBnAKFA/UFuQaYDZfBAu3SAuDvAqbwAvz8AgA=

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/hearthstone/t/kalecgos-prismatic-lens-cost/4667/5

The behavior seems consistent with precedent, though there’s room for debate. Generally, cost modifiers apply in order that the thing applying them went into play. Enchantments use the time that they’re attached to the card, auras use the time that the thing emitting them was played. So if Lens is played before Kalecgos, Kalecgos will apply last and make it cost 0. While if Lens is played after, it always comes after Kalecgos and use the variable cost. One could argue that Kalecgos’ modifier should instead be treated as reapplied at the start of each turn instead of eternally linked to the time Kalecgos is played. Such is not currently the case, though.

May 04 '19 15:05 troggnostupidhs

I think this comment may highlight the issue. The order seems to be evaluated two different ways.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/bix99y/playing_kalecgos_with_nerubian_unraveler_already/em4ffz8/?context=3

Or it could just be interpreted as order mattering.

If they have to resolve in the same step, kalegos gets priority. But otherwise it shouldn't reapply an aura just because something else interacted with the cards. The auras should only be applied to the cards once.

Unravveler aura applied to all cards, they cost normal + 2

Kalecgos comes down, its aura gets applied, reducing all the cards to a flat 0

Polymorph is generated, kalecgos aura is applied first (because now the auras are being applied in the same step as a card comes into the hand)

Unraveler effect is applied to the card next so it costs 2

Makes perfect sense to me that it would work this way. All spells generated or drawn from this point should cost 2.

May 04 '19 16:05 troggnostupidhs

i have done a new test to check for new card draw . https://imgur.com/a/ptLpoYF normal play phase kalecgos discount + 2 mana discovered spell card draw card draw card draw card draw faceless manipulator on kalecgos retriggering the aura update setting all spells to 0 card draw card draw using a spell

May 04 '19 17:05 ceceita

Previous minions with cost aura always have a corresponding enchantment, such as Naga Sea Witch(LOE_038) with Seawitching(LOE_038e), Duskfallen Aviana(GIL_800) with Badsong(GIL_800e), Nerubian Unraveler(ICC_706) with Unravelled(ICC_706e).

But Kalecgos don't have such an enchantment (NO DAL_609e). So I guess the cost changing effects are ordered by the enter-the-battlefield time of that enchantments and Kalecgos itself. So

A spell generated before Kalecgos: the enchantment of Nerubian Unraveler is before Kalecgos, so the final cost is 0;
A spell generated after Kalecgos: the enchantment is attached by aura update so it is after Kalecgos. The final cost is 2.
Nerubian Unraveler A - Kalecgos - Nerubian Unraveler B: the order is e1 -> k -> e2 or k -> e1 -> e2, so the cost is 2 or 4.
Nerubian Unraveler - Kalecgos A - Kalecgos B: B covers A.
Use a spell: Kalecgos's aura isn't active.

For normal situations, Two minions A and B with cost aura and corresponding enchantments, they both attach enchantments during aura update, and the order of enchantments is same as the etb time of the two minions. So it works as expected (because there is no comparing between enchantments and minions)

May 09 '19 14:05 Sunchy321

Many cost modifier effects use a common pool of enchantments. Kalecgos may be using GBL_009e: "Cost = 0".

This seems like it'd have to be the fault of Nerubian Unraveler rather than Kalecgos. It seems like it's using the timestamp that the card was drawn, while Kalecgos is using the time it was played. Should test them against other cards to be sure, like Nerubian Unraveler vs Aviana or Sea Witch.

May 10 '19 13:05 Jetz72

That's right. The timestamp of mana cost auras actually works like this:

For example, you play Nerubian Unraveler. For spells in your hand now, the timestamp of Neru is when Neru enters play. But for spells that enter your hand later, the timestamp of Neru is when the spell enters your hand (more precisely, the next Aura Update after the spell enters your hand).

Here are some examples for this theory:

You control Naga and play Luna's Pocket Galaxy. Then you draw a Deathwing. Naga's timestamp is when Deathwing is drawn, which is later than Pocket Galaxy. Deathwing costs (5).
You control Sonya and Mechwarper. Your Scorp-o-matic dies. Sonya adds a copy of Scorp to hand and sets its cost to (1). Then aura updates, Meckwarper reduces its cost to (0).
You control Aviana and Dollmaster. Your Bright-Eyed Scout draws a Deathwing. Dollmaster resolves first, summoning a 1/1 copy. This results aura update and Aviana sets Deathwing's cost to (1). Then Scout sets its cost to (5). If there weren't Dollmaster, Deathwing's cost would be first set to (5), then set to (1).

May 10 '19 15:05 Kybxd

Some screenshots: Sonya + Mechwarper QQ图片20190510231529

Aviana + Splintergraft QQ图片20190510231538

Naga + Pocker Galaxy QQ图片20190510232110

Aviana + Dollmaster + Scout QQ图片20190510233120

Aviana + Scout (Dollmaster doesn't trigger because board is full) QQ图片20190510232606

May 10 '19 15:05 Kybxd

Many cost modifier effects use a common pool of enchantments. Kalecgos may be using GBL_009e: "Cost = 0".

This seems like it'd have to be the fault of Nerubian Unraveler rather than Kalecgos. It seems like it's using the timestamp that the card was drawn, while Kalecgos is using the time it was played. Should test them against other cards to be sure, like Nerubian Unraveler vs Aviana or Sea Witch.

It doesn't use GBL_009e.

BLOCK_START BlockType=PLAY Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] EffectCardId= EffectIndex=0 Target=0 SubOption=-1 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=* tag=RESOURCES_USED value=10 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=* tag=NUM_RESOURCES_SPENT_THIS_GAME value=33 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=* tag=NUM_CARDS_PLAYED_THIS_TURN value=1 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=* tag=NUM_MINIONS_PLAYED_THIS_TURN value=1 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] tag=1068 value=1 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] tag=1068 value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=末日预言者 id=4 zone=HAND zonePos=7 cardId=NEW1_021 player=1] tag=ZONE_POSITION value=6 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=火球术 id=31 zone=HAND zonePos=6 cardId=CS2_029 player=1] tag=ZONE_POSITION value=5 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=冰霜新星 id=5 zone=HAND zonePos=5 cardId=CS2_026 player=1] tag=ZONE_POSITION value=4 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] tag=1037 value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] tag=ZONE_POSITION value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] tag=ZONE value=PLAY 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] tag=ZONE_POSITION value=1 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] tag=1196 value=1 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] tag=EXHAUSTED value=1 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] tag=JUST_PLAYED value=1 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=* tag=LAST_CARD_PLAYED value=26 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=火球术 id=31 zone=HAND zonePos=6 cardId=CS2_029 player=1] tag=TAG_LAST_KNOWN_COST_IN_HAND value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=炎爆术 id=25 zone=HAND zonePos=3 cardId=EX1_279 player=1] tag=TAG_LAST_KNOWN_COST_IN_HAND value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=霜冻射线 id=7 zone=HAND zonePos=1 cardId=DAL_577 player=1] tag=TAG_LAST_KNOWN_COST_IN_HAND value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=冰霜新星 id=5 zone=HAND zonePos=5 cardId=CS2_026 player=1] tag=TAG_LAST_KNOWN_COST_IN_HAND value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=火球术 id=31 zone=HAND zonePos=6 cardId=CS2_029 player=1] tag=COST value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=炎爆术 id=25 zone=HAND zonePos=3 cardId=EX1_279 player=1] tag=COST value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=霜冻射线 id=7 zone=HAND zonePos=1 cardId=DAL_577 player=1] tag=COST value=0 
    TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=冰霜新星 id=5 zone=HAND zonePos=5 cardId=CS2_026 player=1] tag=COST value=0 
    BLOCK_START BlockType=POWER Entity=[entityName=卡雷苟斯 id=26 zone=HAND zonePos=4 cardId=DAL_609 player=1] EffectCardId= EffectIndex=0 Target=0 SubOption=-1 
        FULL_ENTITY - Creating ID=103 CardID=EX1_277
            tag=CONTROLLER value=1
            tag=CARDTYPE value=SPELL
            tag=COST value=1
            tag=ZONE value=SETASIDE
            tag=ENTITY_ID value=103
            tag=FACTION value=NEUTRAL
            tag=RARITY value=FREE
            tag=CREATOR value=26
            tag=349 value=1
            tag=TAG_LAST_KNOWN_COST_IN_HAND value=1
            tag=1037 value=1
            tag=CREATOR_DBID value=53002
        FULL_ENTITY - Creating ID=104 CardID=EX1_279
            tag=CONTROLLER value=1
            tag=CARDTYPE value=SPELL
            tag=COST value=10
            tag=ZONE value=SETASIDE
            tag=ENTITY_ID value=104
            tag=FACTION value=NEUTRAL
            tag=RARITY value=EPIC
            tag=CREATOR value=26
            tag=TAG_LAST_KNOWN_COST_IN_HAND value=10
            tag=1037 value=1
            tag=CREATOR_DBID value=53002
        FULL_ENTITY - Creating ID=105 CardID=BOT_600
            tag=CONTROLLER value=1
            tag=CARDTYPE value=SPELL
            tag=COST value=2
            tag=ZONE value=SETASIDE
            tag=ENTITY_ID value=105
            tag=RARITY value=COMMON
            tag=CREATOR value=26
            tag=TAG_LAST_KNOWN_COST_IN_HAND value=2
            tag=1037 value=1
            tag=CREATOR_DBID value=53002
TAG_CHANGE Entity=* tag=COMBO_ACTIVE value=1 
TAG_CHANGE Entity=* tag=NUM_OPTIONS_PLAYED_THIS_TURN value=1 
TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=炎爆术 id=104 zone=SETASIDE zonePos=0 cardId=EX1_279 player=1] tag=1068 value=3 
TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=炎爆术 id=104 zone=SETASIDE zonePos=0 cardId=EX1_279 player=1] tag=1068 value=0 
TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=炎爆术 id=104 zone=SETASIDE zonePos=0 cardId=EX1_279 player=1] tag=ZONE value=HAND 
TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=炎爆术 id=104 zone=SETASIDE zonePos=0 cardId=EX1_279 player=1] tag=ZONE_POSITION value=7 
TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=炎爆术 id=104 zone=SETASIDE zonePos=0 cardId=EX1_279 player=1] tag=DISPLAYED_CREATOR value=26 
BLOCK_END
TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=炎爆术 id=104 zone=SETASIDE zonePos=0 cardId=EX1_279 player=1] tag=TAG_LAST_KNOWN_COST_IN_HAND value=0 
TAG_CHANGE Entity=[entityName=炎爆术 id=104 zone=SETASIDE zonePos=0 cardId=EX1_279 player=1] tag=COST value=0 
BLOCK_END

May 12 '19 02:05 Sunchy321

You control Sonya and Mechwarper. Your Scorp-o-matic dies. Sonya adds a copy of Scorp to hand and sets its cost to (1). Then aura updates, Meckwarper reduces its cost to (0).

Has this interaction changed again? I remember it originally being this way, but some time last year Mechwarper wouldn't override Sonya. I assumed that behavior was correct, because I thought cost auras always used the timestamp of the thing emitting them while enchantments would use the time of their attachment.

May 13 '19 13:05 Jetz72

@Jetz72 Yes, above are the interactions in 14.0 now.

I think the weird changes of Sonya/Mechwarper and Aviana/Splintergraft is the result of aura update issues. As is mentioned above, mana cost auras attach relevant enchantment to the card in the next aura update after the card is added to hand.

So if aura update does run when a card is added to hand, Mechwarper & Aviana can add their enchantment immediately, which is earlier before Sonya & Splintergraft. If aura update doesn't run in this occasion, Mechwarper & Aviana have to wait until next aura update. Thus they are later than Sonya & Splintergraft.

May 13 '19 14:05 Kybxd

Not fixed QQ图片20190515115526

May 15 '19 03:05 Kybxd

Report of it affecting one of the adventure treasures: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/hearthstone/t/robes-of-gaudiness-scepter-of-summoning-bug/6323

ROBES OF GAUDINESS/SCEPTER OF SUMMONING BUG These 2 items combo like you want them. reduces anything 5 or more to 5 and then the robe reduces the cost to 2. However it does not work on your starting hand if you picked up the Robes first in your run. since it first halves the cost and then the scepter does nothing. But it does apply correctly to the rest of the deck (scepter first, then robes)

Sounds like the Robes are affected and using the affected card's draw timestamp, while the Scepter is working normally and using the emitter timestamp.

May 22 '19 20:05 Jetz72

This is fixed. Kalecgos has an enchantment now. {"cardClass":"NEUTRAL", "dbfId":57805, "id":"DAL_609e", "name":"Aspect's Magic", "set":"DALARAN", "text":"Costs (0).", "type":"ENCHANTMENT"}

QQ图片20190701201859

Jul 01 '19 12:07 Kybxd

This patch added DAL_609e

https://api.hearthstonejson.com/v1/31268/enUS/cards.json

{ "cardClass": "NEUTRAL", "dbfId": 57805, "id": "DAL_609e", "name": "Aspect's Magic", "set": "DALARAN", "text": "Costs (0).", "type": "ENCHANTMENT" }

Jul 01 '19 14:07 troggnostupidhs

Can anyone determine if the adventure treasures are fixed? If so, we can probably close this. If not, might be better to generalize it. Are there any other cases that might be worth testing?

Jul 02 '19 16:07 Jetz72

Seems to affect Venture Co. Mercenary. From Discord:

Venture Co & Aviana on board, Aviana reduces the cost of all cards to 0, but then Venture Co. adds 3 to the cost only to the minion I just draw, but not the other minions.

Aug 30 '19 14:08 Jetz72

Kirin Tor Tricaster seems affected: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/hearthstone/t/kalecgos-and-kirin-tor-tricaster-inconsistent-mana-cost/32552

For some reason Blizzard costs (0) and Power of Creation (1) which is pretty weird.

Screenshot:

Replay: https://hsreplay.net/replay/SUUMMhim898ymXgS6MbKte#turn=11a

Someone in the thread brought up the possibility of Kalegos being considered reapplied at the start of each turn as an explanation for the disparity. It was ruled out above since as I recall, a cost modified with Prismatic Lens wouldn't be changed to 0 by him at the start of the following turn. But I'd be curious to see if anything along those lines has changed. Would also explain Aviana/Venture Co.

May 07 '20 14:05 Jetz72

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Kalecgos's effect is evaluated inconsistently with Nerubian Unraveler

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