Added hardened leather

[bean-b]

Summary

Content "Added Hardened Leather"

Purpose of change

un-hardedened leather isnt as protective as it is in game, but hardening reperesnents a signifigant increase in its protection values. Therefore, they should be two different materials

Describe the solution

Added new material, put it into armors and recipes as nescary.

Describe alternatives you've considered

There is a poteitnal reason to change leather to be graded (i.e. light meduim heavy), but that seemed like a lot to change, and hardened leather was a good simpler solution for now. Also values could of course be changed. I think regular leather could have even less resistances, but going down a full 0.5 seemed like a lot on any given value, going to 0.25 or 0.75 will leave a lot of unsatisfying numbers for common clothing.

Testing

Spawned items in game, looked at recipes

Additional context

closes (hopefully) https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/56241 hardening process: https://medium.com/@jasontimmermans/a-comparative-study-of-leather-hardening-techniques-16-methods-tested-and-novel-approaches-8574e571f619

[bean-b]

I'm not quite sure why it requested a code review, i still need to lint it and a few things, so sorry if you got pinged on that if you shouldnt have, (EDIT) Oh i see, its because i edited the dino mod files

[bean-b]

Sorry this pr is such a mess lol, was gonna lint it after pulling but then ended up linting it through all the bots comments lol

[RenechCDDA]

Okay... a few things. First, it seems you're also adjusting the values of regular leather. After the given changes, leather will be less protective vs all damage types than... canvas. Or faux fur. Or... lycra?? Maybe that's correct, but I'd like to see at least some reasoning for it.

Similarly, you are adding hardened leather as a material and giving it to a wide variety of existing items. It has superior stats to the old leather (representing boiled leather, a type of hardened leather as outlined by your medium page). Why? Let's see some reasoning, comparisons of how it holds up as compared to canvas, that sort of thing. NIJ test data for stab vests or something of the sort would probably be the best possible data. Mostly, I want to see data comparing it to other materials.

Your medium article indicates that ammonia-treated "hardened leather" has less puncture resistance ("average force in kg required to push the awl to 5mm depth in the leather") at 4.87kg for ammonia-treated vs 5.53kg for boiled, which we currently have ingame. Thus it doesn't make much sense to me that the cut and bullet resistance of your new material, produced by the ammonia-treated method, should be increased over the existing boiled leather.

Your medium article indicates ammonia-treated "hardened leather" loses approximately 63% of its water resistance. If so, existing items should probably lose their WATERPROOF and/or WATER_FRIENDLY tags. I don't see any changes on this, so maybe they never had them, but please make sure and check if you haven't already. edit: And RAINPROOF

It seems you've made changes to.... the lorica segmentata? The changes seem to add material definitions to its armor, and change the overall item's composition from iron/leather to steel/leather. The old leather, too. I am not sure that is what you intended to commit.

This is not intended to be an exhaustive review, just some things I saw while looking over the total changes.

[worm-girl]

Okay... a few things. First, it seems you're also adjusting the values of regular leather. After the given changes, leather will be less protective vs all damage types than... canvas. Or faux fur. Or... lycra??

My impression from many hours of play in the past year is that we might need a full material audit. Faux fur and lycra have really overblown values, the game seems to treat lycra as this miracle material and not fragile itchy spandex.

I haven't gone over OP's numbers, but fabrics in general may be due for a reckoning.

[RenechCDDA]

It could very well be that Canvas, faux fur, and lycra are all wrong. (I agree that Lycra in particular seems to be a bit of a 'miracle material'). But what I'd like to see is some reasoning, even just like... a text explanation here saying "I took the values from the medium.com link and tried to apply them as in [such and such manner]". For example, look at the comments for the steel grades which reference industrial standards. If we wanted to compare the malleability or shear strength or any other value of a given metal we could easily compare to that. That's good data, easy to compare, makes a strong case that it is a valid material and different from other materials in the specific ways it is implemented as being different.

I don't think the PR needs to verify every inch of every related material, it just needs to reasonably explain why it's been placed at the values it has been.

[bean-b]

• Yea i can understand adjusting the leather values furthering. I do agree with some of the comments that it may be difficult given the some of the current material values, I do agree that many of those values feel wrong, but I don't imagine in in the scope of this pr to go ahead and change all of the fabrics protection values (unless the general consensus is that i should). That being said, I'm willing to believe i was too harsh on leathers values.
• I looked at this article here. http://elbdisliker.at.ua/TermBallInd/nolan2012.pdf. They came to the following conculsion "Previously, it was thought that leather would have the great-est influence on force, and the results here also support this observation for the standard clothing tested.". So im definitely willing to increase the cutting/bullet values back to closer to what they were before.
• For The bludgeoning values, I could leave them at 1, but given that canvas and lycra is 2, I feel like leather should be at least a bit higher then one. Just on my instincts, I would much rather be hit with a bludening thing wearing a 1.5mm leather jacket then 1.5mm of lycra leggings, but increasing leathers bludenging values past 2 seems like it could possibly make it to strong, but of course i would be open to changing it.
• Also we did not have boiled leather as a material in the game, hardened leather here was meant simulate boiled or otherwise treated leathers, because currently items that list themselves as boiled leather are just made of normal leather but thicker, which doesn't make much sense. For example the boiled leather armor, after boiling it and treating it with was gained 1mm of leather to increase its protection, because it was still made of the same leather material. Also, because we lacked a boiled leather option, items crafted out of boiled leather, mainly the various boiled leather animal armors, were crafted out of 3 human suits of boiled leather armor, which imo makes a lot less sense then in this pr when they can be crafted out of boiled leather sheets
• The rainproof tag totally makes sense, I'll go ahead and add those
• It's true that this does make a lot of the leather armor's more powerful, but it also makes them significantly harder to craft. This pr makes it harder to simply cut up the leather from a pair of leather pants and turn that into a suit of armor, which i think is an improvement.

[RenechCDDA]

• because currently items that list themselves as boiled leather are just made of normal leather but thicker, which doesn't make much sense.

As far as I am aware, the thickness values were explicitly added by yourself in #62196.

The boiled leather armor we have certainly does represent some form of treatment, even if that treatment may involve more than strictly “cuir bouilli”. It explicitly requires water, heat, and one of a variety of sealing agents, all of which have broad support or theory behind them including your own sources. The only thing I would find questionable about it is the use of rendered animal fats, but that's easy to fix without completely removing the recipe and its attendant item. The only difference between the treatment provided for in the existing boiled leather armor and your sheet_leather_hardened_patchwork is the addition of ammonia solution as a possible sealing agent.

...Speaking of which, your recipe for sheet_leather_hardened_patchwork calls for a 50% solution of ammonia-water, far in excess of what is suggested. Or an astounding 2L of animal fats per ~186mL of hardened leather. You probably want to check those numbers.

[bean-b]

As far as I am aware, the thickness values were explicitly added by yourself in #62196.

No I did choose the thickness of boiled leather armor, but that was because there wasnt any alternative material to have them made out of, and also because that was the way that boiled armor was before #62196, and i wasnt trying to add a new material in that pr, but still wanted it to have higher protection values then the untreated leather armor.

...Speaking of which, your recipe for sheet_leather_hardened_patchwork calls for a 50% solution of ammonia-water, far in excess of what is suggested. Or an astounding 2L of animal fats per ~186mL of hardened leather. You probably want to check those numbers.

No that makes sense Ill do that when i get a chance

The only thing I would find questionable about it is the use of rendered animal fats, but that's easy to fix without completely removing the recipe and its attendant item. The only difference between the treatment provided for in the existing boiled leather armor and your sheet_leather_hardened_patchwork is the addition of ammonia solution as a possible sealing agent.

And yes the hardening process i very similar to what we have before. If it seemed like it would be better for hardened leather to instead be boiled leather and not use anything other then water + heat, I could adjust the recipe accordingly, but if it seems better with the adition of sealing/hardening agents, then i can deftinly go through and adjust the amounts it calls for. I can also remove the possiblity of using amonnia, I just added it because it was used and seemed to have good results in the article linked at the top of the pr

[anoobindisguise]

I remember there being someone who posted sources suggesting soft leather wasn't even better than wet cotton for cutting resistance. Don't remember where it was though. While leather is actually fairly stiff and would be decent at absorbing incoming force. So you could quite honestly leave standard leather at 2 bash, 1 cut, 1-1.5 ballistic, then make hardened leather 2.5/2.5-3 or so. I assume soft leather is for stuff like jackets, dusters, corsets, purses, while hard leather is for boots and vaguely ahistoric armor? all our material values are pretty arbitrary so it's understandable that none of it makes much sense atm though.

[bean-b]

I remember there being someone who posted sources suggesting soft leather wasn't even better than wet cotton for cutting resistance. Don't remember where it was though. While leather is actually fairly stiff and would be decent at absorbing incoming force. So you could quite honestly leave standard leather at 2 bash, 1 cut, 1-1.5 ballistic, then make hardened leather 2.5/2.5-3 or so. I assume soft leather is for stuff like jackets, dusters, corsets, purses, while hard leather is for boots and vaguely ahistoric armor? all our material values are pretty arbitrary so it's understandable that none of it makes much sense atm though.

Yea, leather was mentioned here https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/56241, which was part of why I wanted to go through and make these changes. However, judging from this source (http://elbdisliker.at.ua/TermBallInd/nolan2012.pdf.) leather does have more resistance to puncturing then cotton, and while I couldnt find a great source on cutting, I think along with some my general intuition says that leaather should have more then 1 protection value. This was futher complicated looking at materials like lycra, which has 2 protection value. I could see bringing the resitance to like 2, 2, 1.5 for leather though if you think that would be better. And yes the intention is that leather is for modern clothes and general usage, while hard leather is mainly for crafted armors

[bean-b]

This should be merged in after the stable realize if it is merged

[github-actions[bot]]

This issue has been automatically marked as stale because it has not had recent activity. It will be closed if no further activity occurs. Thank you for your contributions. Please do not bump or comment on this issue unless you are actively working on it. Stale issues, and stale issues that are closed are still considered.

[GuardianDll]

Why closed?

[bean-b]

Why closed?

I saw that #56241 was closed as not planned, so I was'nt sure if that means this isn't planned either?

[GuardianDll]

It was closed by bot, no one just spottet it It will be reopened soon enough

[NetSysFire]

I did the deed. Stalebot is running berserk. I think we need more triage team members instead of that lousy bot. Closing issues doesnt magically fix bugs or balance issues.

[github-actions[bot]]

This issue has been automatically marked as stale because it has not had recent activity. It will be closed if no further activity occurs. Thank you for your contributions. Please do not bump or comment on this issue unless you are actively working on it. Stale issues, and stale issues that are closed are still considered.