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Code Table Request - New Catalog Record Attribute: cause of death
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See discussion in https://github.com/ArctosDB/data-migration/issues/889#issuecomment-1503495144 (including the initial request in comments in the same issue).
there are attributes for our deer collection that we would like to record but that I don't see; namely cause of death,
cause of death - this has traditionally ended up in collecting event remark (a lot of herpetological records include "DOR" or "dead on road"). Would you want a list of choices to select from or just a free text description?
we are needing to categorize hunter harvest, dead on road, euthanized, disease, vehicle, depredation, and predation as causes of mortality.
Proposed Value: Proposed new value. This should be clear and compatible with similar values in the relevant table and across Arctos.
cause of death
Proposed Definition: Clear, complete, non-collection-type-specific functional definition of the value. Avoid discipline-specific terminology if possible, include parenthetically if unavoidable.
The method by which the cataloged organism died.
Context: Describe why this new value is necessary and existing values are not.
If I have missed that we are somehow recording this consistently elsewhere, please let me know. The code table ctkill_method exists, but I cannot figure out where/how it is being used.
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https://arctos.database.museum/info/ctDocumentation.cfm?table=ctattribute_type
with categorical values in a new code table - ctcause_of_death (or can/should we use the table above?)
hunter harvest - Killed by humans for food or to control a population. euthanized - Humanely put to death. disease – Death caused by disease condition. vehicle – Killed by a motor vehicle. depredation – Killed by humans to mitigate damage to crops, landscaping, or other property. predation – Killed by predator species.
Collection type: Some code tables contain collection-type-specific values. collection_cde may be found from https://arctos.database.museum/home.cfm
Bird Herp Mamm Amph Rept Host Teach
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yes
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@ArctosDB/arctos-code-table-administrators @hkevans
ctkill_method exists, but I cannot figure out where/how it is being used
https://arctos.database.museum/info/ctDocumentation.cfm?table=ctattribute_code_tables will answer that - it's not, and I think it should be expanded for this.
This feels like in some ideal world it would all be methods/attributes of 'collecting' specimen-events or similar, but reality exists and we've used record attributes in similar ways, this seems reasonable.
I'm checking the box to support a new attribute type 'cause of death' which uses ctkill_method for values. Additions to that table need their own issues (I think, maybe I'm being too paranoid on the procedure thing, those all look reasonable to me).
This feels like in some ideal world it would all be methods/attributes of 'collecting' specimen-events or similar
That was my gut reaction and perhaps it is where this belongs? I don't want to rush into creating a catalog record attribute if the data would be more useful in the event.
I can see a couple confounding factors. What happens when you have an animal that was hit by a car, still alive, and then you euthanized it? Or an animal with a disease that was euthanized in a hospital? Or an animal that was hunted, and then found to have a disease?
You are probably going to have a number of animals where the point of their death is a multi-factor state.
For basic collecting info (salvage, shot, net, trap) I put that info in Collecting Method in the Event fields.
What happens when you have an animal that was hit by a car, still alive, and then you euthanized it? Or an animal with a disease that was euthanized in a hospital? Or an animal that was hunted, and then found to have a disease?
In all cases, you record more than one attribute - date/times are available as well, so you can even record the sequence of events.
But, given the above, I think leaving this as a catalog record attribute makes sense until people are willing to record a "death" event.
death is a multi-factor state.
Ain't that the truth!
So, maybe this needs de-deathed, which might also accommodate rearing events and experimental parasite infections and whatever. "life event" or something maybe (and does that encompass some other Issues??)
- born
- hit by car
- hunted
- euthanized
and adding all of those up can be left to the reader.
found to have a disease?
That's https://github.com/ArctosDB/arctos/issues/5688
de-deathed
or at least de-killed?
I like the idea of life event - a lightweight way to say there is information about when/what happened to something (no locality involved).
Change ctkill_method to ctlife_event? I can request the death stuff - because there is data waiting on that - life stuff can come when someone has data.
de-killed
Ish? Probably should be made distinct from hacking up carcasses (that's part-stuff) and such, but maybe it could extend some sort postmortem activities (in which case it probably needs a better name)??? Is "scavenged" in here? Could/should this be extended to buses - "painted"??
lightweight
Yes, and that should be made clear from the documentation - this, wherever it wanders, can't be a replacement for Events. (But it might come to include 'verbatim preservation date' which seems like a pretty decent trade.)
Change ctkill_method to ctlife_event?
Ugh, I was hoping to avoid a new table, but yea, I think so depending on how some stuff ^^up yonder works out.
HMMMM - but this would disallow the use of the terms for "cause of death" in a code table, right?
attribute = life event value - death remark - hunter
not what we are after really?
not what we are after really?
Good question. I bet it will differ depending on what type of collection is being handled. I like "Life Event", because a lot of the things you cover are things that can happen during the life of an animal. When you broaden out to objects, where does life end?
Other types of things that might occur during a Life Event -> offspring, migration, dispersal, surgery, recovery (from an injury or disease). All of those would be interesting to know, but they might also involve becoming more like a medical chart. Is that where museum data will be going? I wonder how the Zoo databases handle this info.
condition report
That's parts, which is probably blurry when talking about buses. Maybe pretend I didn't go there...
IDK what the scope of this is (maybe don't need to) and I'm not sure what to call it, but I think having a few (<dozens) of big-picture thingee-event-terms in a CT is a worthy goal, especially if it leads to something more useful than eg https://github.com/ArctosDB/arctos/issues/4203 (a million ways of saying 'something about roads wasn't particularly healthy').
how the Zoo databases handle this info
Like condition report, I suspect - I don't think they'd have a lot of interest in searching (so don't need finite categories) and do have lots of 'method' details, but I don't actually know.
Maybe pretend I didn't go there...
Can do
See also - https://github.com/ArctosDB/arctos/issues/6110
Maybe we could use two things
cause of death
life event
life events could be things like birth, weaning, etc. but cause of death would be an explanation for the life event that is "death".
To give some context here, as a management agency using Arctos, we want to collect both disease status (CWD positive or negative, which is another thread), and cause of death because, as pointed out, we don’t 100% know what ultimately kills an animal in all cases. However, in future, we will be interested in looking at these factors together. Are CWD positive deer more likely to be hit by a vehicle, for example? So wherever these land, we just want to make sure we have a way to capture the various mortality events – in so much as we can make that determination. And we do have some very definitive categories at play here – hunter harvest, depredation, e.g.
Heather K. Evans, Ph.D. Conservation Geneticist
NC Wildlife Resources Commission Mailing Address: 11 West Jones Street Raleigh, North Carolina 27601 Office: 919-707-9285 Mobile: 984-480-6408
ncwildlife.orghttp://ncwildlife.org/
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From: dustymc @.> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2023 3:53 PM To: ArctosDB/arctos @.> Cc: Evans, Heather K @.>; Mention @.> Subject: [External] Re: [ArctosDB/arctos] Code Table Request - New Catalog Record Attribute: cause of death (Issue #6115)
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condition report
That's parts, which is probably blurry when talking about buses. Maybe pretend I didn't go there...
IDK what the scope of this is (maybe don't need to) and I'm not sure what to call it, but I think having a few (<dozens) of big-picture thingee-event-terms in a CT is a worthy goal, especially if it leads to something more useful than eg #4203https://github.com/ArctosDB/arctos/issues/4203 (a million ways of saying 'something about roads wasn't particularly healthy').
how the Zoo databases handle this info
Like condition report, I suspect - I don't think they'd have a lot of interest in searching (so don't need finite categories) and do have lots of 'method' details, but I don't actually know.
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two things
Seems excessive, especially in light of @hkevans comments.
I think I still like 'life event'
- born
- weaned
- vehicle encounter
- euthanized
and MAYBE (if someone shows up with data) that could be extended to 'scavenged,' but definitely not to things that happen to teapots.
Yay?
How zoos handle this: from ZIMS
Plus they have another table that shows all the medical history comments and events.
'life event'
born weaned vehicle encounter euthanized
BUT at least for these - there is not a guarantee of death. Any of these might result in injury or pathology or death, so we are sorta mixing two things? Note the definitions requested by @hkevans. A "vehicle encounter" might not cause the death of an individual although it might be an interesting fact someone would want to know if it didn't. How do we distinguish them in the code table?
disease – Death caused by disease condition. vehicle – Killed by a motor vehicle. predation – Killed by predator species.
not a guarantee of death
Right, "we don’t 100% know what ultimately kills an animal in all cases." I don't think we want to play overpoliticized coroner here, we just want to record what's known. Maybe the poor deer was smited by the universe itself right before the Peterbilt came along, who knows, we just know it was found all mangled up near the highway. Am I interpreting that correctly @hkevans ?
And I like 'event' (euthanized, weaned) better than 'result' (dead, ???????) because I think it's more extensible (eg maybe to things like rearing insects).
I like event - can also apply to wild caught animals brought into captivity, infected with some cestode larvae, euthanized, examined for pathology, etc; plus the larvae have events being used to infect something else. We have a lot of Rausch data like this.
On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 2:56 PM dustymc @.***> wrote:
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not a guarantee of death
Right, "we don’t 100% know what ultimately kills an animal in all cases." I don't think we want to play overpoliticized coroner here, we just want to record what's known. Maybe the poor deer was smited by the universe itself right before the Peterbilt came along, who knows, we just know it was found all mangled up near the highway. Am I interpreting that correctly @hkevans https://github.com/hkevans ?
And I like 'event' (euthanized, weaned) better than 'result' (dead, ???????) because I think it's more extensible (eg maybe to things like rearing insects).
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infected with some cestode larvae
Or just exposed; the 'event' doesn't necessarily have to lead to a 'result' (or state or whatever that is), and we won't necessarily know about it if it does.
Yes, but the event is a collection of a dead deer. So we would want to note that, and then maybe we could remark somehow on what we conjecture to be the cause of death? Are we 100% right all the time? Maybe not, but in some cases, we are 100% percent sure (hunter harvest) and in the other cases we’re pretty sure (vehicle) - and if you ask my biologists, they will argue with you that they are very very sure. Is there a way to build in a remark for “likely cause of death” that goes along with the event?
Heather K. Evans, Ph.D. Conservation Geneticist
NC Wildlife Resources Commission 11 W. Jones St. Raleigh, NC 27601 Office: 919-707-9285 Mobile:984-480-6408
ncwildlife.org
On Apr 11, 2023, at 4:55 PM, dustymc @.***> wrote:
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not a guarantee of death
Right, "we don’t 100% know what ultimately kills an animal in all cases." I don't think we want to play overpoliticized coroner here, we just want to record what's known. Maybe the poor deer was smited by the universe itself right before the Peterbilt came along, who knows, we just know it was found all mangled up near the highway. Am I interpreting that correctly @hkevanshttps://github.com/hkevans ?
And I like 'event' (euthanized, weaned) better than 'result' (dead, ???????) because I think it's more extensible (eg maybe to things like rearing insects).
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@hkevans all attributes include a remark - so you could definitely add that. I just don't want you to feel like you have to add something as a remark when it could be conveyed through the attribute itself, which is what was originally requested.
If using the remark to indicate "death" works, then we will need to adjust definitions for the terms.
hunter harvest - Killed by humans for food or to control a population. euthanized - Humanely put to death. disease – Experienced a disease condition. vehicle encounter – Made contact with a motor vehicle. depredation – Killed by humans to mitigate damage to crops, landscaping, or other property. predation – Completely or partially eaten by predator species.
I know this is crazy - but this is where I can see begin and end dates working for attributes...but then maybe we are just turning attributes into events.
I'm trying to be as general as possible to hopefully make this work for as large and diverse an audience as possible. (And sometimes that's not productive, but I think it might be here. I could be wrong, I'm not morally opposed to a simpler 'cause of death' or whatever approach, but I do suspect we'll find a bunch of overlap when the lepidopterists or experimental parasitologists inevitably show up.)
For some zoo/tagged/whatever thing with 50 events, maybe there'd be no clear ultimate cause of death and I need to spend days reviewing the details to really understand the situation.
For a deer, I think this would almost always be one conclusive 'event' - it was found beside the road or harvested. (All attributes have method and remarks so that can be expanded/clarified/whatever as necessary.) I don't see much ambiguity in that, interpreting this as 'likely cause of death' seems perfectly reasonable, at least for a deer with one such determination (and I suspect the people interested in that are going to filter out the zoo cobras with 50 events in a bunch of ways).
Just reading through this again and I think we need to clarify.
@dustymc you signed off on this:
New attribute = cause of death
Definition = The method by which the cataloged organism died.
categorical, values controlled by ctkill_method
Add the following values to ctkill_method
hunter harvest - Killed by humans for food or to control a population.
euthanized - Humanely put to death.
disease – Experienced a disease condition.
vehicle encounter – Made contact with a motor vehicle.
depredation – Killed by humans to mitigate damage to crops, landscaping, or other property.
predation – Completely or partially eaten by predator species.
BUT then there is all the discussion about "life event" and everyone seems to be good with that. If we do that, the proposal would be?
New attribute = life event
Definition = a lightweight way to say there is information about when/what happened to the cataloged item (no locality involved).
Change ctkill_method to ctlife_event.
categorical, values controlled by ctlife_event
Add the following values to ctlife_event
hunter harvest - Killed by humans for food or to control a population.
euthanized - Humanely put to death.
disease – Experienced a disease condition.
vehicle encounter – Made contact with a motor vehicle.
depredation – Killed by humans to mitigate damage to crops, landscaping, or other property.
predation – Completely or partially eaten by predator species.
Right?
Yes. If we can generalize then this can be used for (much) more than death - which I think is more in line with the original request anyway. ("It seems to have been struck by a car, we don't know if that killed it or not" - fine with 'life events' but completely incompatible with 'cause of death.')
I'm still fine with the thing I signed off on too, but the seems like the revision does all that and more, and who doesn't like free functionality!?
Life event with categories as defined would work for my purposes.
Heather K. Evans, Ph.D. Conservation Geneticist
NC Wildlife Resources Commission Mailing Address: 11 West Jones Street Raleigh, North Carolina 27601 Office: 919-707-9285 Mobile: 984-480-6408
ncwildlife.orghttp://ncwildlife.org/
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Yes. If we can generalize then this can be used for (much) more than death - which I think is more in line with the original request anyway. ("It seems to have been struck by a car, we don't know if that killed it or not" - fine with 'life events' but completely incompatible with 'cause of death.')
I'm still fine with the thing I signed off on too, but the seems like the revision does all that and more, and who doesn't like free functionality!?
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@Jegelewicz At the Code Table meeting 18 May 2023 we talked about using the existing attribute ctkill_method to enter source of mortality. Change code table term to 'source of mortality' with values:
collision depredation disease euthanized hunter harvested incidental predation
And then use method to be more specific, e.g., how it was euthanized (chloroform, pentobarbital, etc.). Can also use 'detected' for more specific pathology details.
For collision, enter what you know (vehicle, airplane, window, wind turbine, etc.) in method.
Incidental: examples of bycatch or unintentional capture mortality (e.g., found dead in trap).
