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Mac OS/El Capitan meets Homebrew and other tools :(
It seems authorizations for installing software on OS X have been changed for security reasons.
Could you please modify the existing descriptions to reflect the new situation? E.g. "sudo" doesn't always work as described, some installations seem only possible inside a virtual environment, etc.
I think we should stop having all of this in the guide, and simply point people at the authoritative documentation that will be kept up-to-date. Thoughts @kennethreitz?
See your point, however the guide is more or less the only place where a coherent and complete overview is given to structure and guide the process as opposed to bits here and there...
What parts of the project are you referring to specifically, @BobAalsma ?
Well, if you're approaching this area as a newbie (i.e. you've not seen any of this in training, school, work etc.), it's relatively easy to discover Python and programming with it, it's more difficult to discover the existence of "useful background stuff" such as github and virtual environments etc, and it's almost impossible to set up a good production flow.
So to get a simple overview in the sense of installing Homebrew, pip etc to set up the environment is really a relief - only I struggled to follow the installation and ran into lots of errors and...
I guess this is about confidence offered, recognised and taken away again ;)
@BobAalsma there's something that's very confusing to me in what you seem to be expecting from the guide. You want the guide to be a "newbie"'s resource for a "good production flow". This resource, however, isn't meant to be anything more than Kenneth's opinions on the good things in Python (a lot of which may at this point be out of date). It's been contributed to in some ways but is still very much one person's opinion about what they prefer to use. Nothing in here leads to a "good production flow" (in my mental model of what that might mean) and I don't think it was ever intended to.
You talk about what a struggle it was to use the instructions for a fundamentally tangential resource that is not something we should be constantly updating (because we're duplicating the work to keep it up-to-date when that project does an excellent job of keeping it up-to-date). We really should only be linking to it. Their installation instructions were no different from ours when ours were correct. Whatever we'd update would be a copy-paste of theirs. And there's not a whole lot of value in duplicating what may very soon be outdated instructions.
@sigmavirus24 I think we agree.
What I really appreciate in the guide is the offered structure and/or order in which to perform certain tasks; I do not think it is necessary to copy detailed instructions that would be obsolete within a short period of time.
@BobAalsma okay. I misunderstood you then. I'm sorry for that. We can absolutely keep the structure/ordering while not duplicating effort. :-)
If you want to send a pull request to update that with a link to the installation documentation from Homebrew that would be excellent.
@sigmavirus24 Ah, yet another learning experience ;) Ok, thanks, I will - I may be a while though...
These sections are the most important part of this guide, and definitely will not be removed.
I may need to spend some time revisiting them soon, but they are the primary reason this guide exists.
@sigmavirus24 your description of what this project is is false. I've given a tremendous number of talks on the subject, and your prognosis is effectively the opposite of what is said in each and every one.
#BobAalsma what is needed to close this issue? Were you able to send the pull request?
Sorry, I don’t feel sufficiently knowledgeable to decide that. My point as a newbie was merely pointing out that I could no longer apply that particular text but I (still) don’t feel capable of delivering a solution.
Met vriendelijke groet, Bob Aalsma
On 6 feb. 2017, at 14:13, Luis Rueda [email protected] wrote:
#BobAalsma what is needed to close this issue? Were you able to send the pull request?
— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub https://github.com/kennethreitz/python-guide/issues/706#issuecomment-277676540, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AFY3MV6j-vb6Cyp40IKM2nUmiGQQwyUjks5rZxxwgaJpZM4IhOGw.
@BobAalsma can you point me to the link were you believe an entry should be made to homebrew installation? I can submit the PR.
Really sorry, Luis, it’s been almost a year - I don’t remember and I can’t find a clear reference.
If I remember correctly, the point was that a normal OS X user is not allowed to sudo which means it is impossible to use homebrow or set up a virtualenv; it used to be possible to install stuff locally as a normal user (non-sys admin) but El Capitan blocked that. Does that help you?
Met vriendelijke groet, Bob Aalsma
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On 6 feb. 2017, at 14:19, Luis Rueda [email protected] wrote:
@BobAalsma https://github.com/BobAalsma can you point me to the link were you believe an entry should be made to homebrew installation? I can submit the PR.
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Hi folks. Former Homebrew core maintainer here.
I think this issue can probably be closed now. Most of the El Capitan security stuff has been fixed up on Homebrew's end.
the point was that a normal OS X user is not allowed to sudo which means it is impossible to use homebrow or set up a virtualenv; it used to be possible to install stuff locally as a normal user (non-sys admin) but El Capitan blocked that.
Under a typical setup, normal OS X users are allowed sudo. The issue here was that with the new System Integrity Protection stuff introduced with El Capitan, even a sudo-ed user was not allowed to write to certain areas, including /usr/, and in certain situations (such as after an in-place upgrade from a previous OS X version to El Capitan), /usr/local/ might not even exist, leading to a messed-up setup. This was a general issue with Homebrew, nothing specific to Python.
Newer versions of Homebrew have mostly cleaned up this mess, and there's Google-able documentation on it out there (google "brew sip el capitan"). As things stand now, this guide's current instructions should work for most users again, including on El Cap and newer OS X versions. And for messed-up OS X machines where it won't work, the fixes are pretty detailed and situation-specific OS X sysadmin stuff; IMHO it's not appropriate for including in a Python user guide.
I'd recommend not changing the guide for this, and closing this issue out.
Other users on this thread: if you're still having trouble with your Homebrew setup and/or Python installs under it, head over to the Homebrew issue tracker at https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core and report it; we'll help you straighten it out.
