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NixOS
Offical/Unofficial communities
Introduce your stance As part of the moderation team I'm concerned about the listing of community spaces.
Describe the issue
- Mastodon, Twitter and Stackoverflow appears as if they were moderated by the NixOS moderation team, which is not the case
- The /r/nixos subreddit should likely be removed, as it is currently a major contributor to social issues in the community
- The visual difference between official and unofficial spaces could be made clearer, e.g. by using a different coloring
- The part where unofficial platforms are NOT moderated by the NixOS moderation team should receive more emphasis
Page links
https://nixos.org/community/
Additional context n/a
- [ ] I already created a Pull Request
Thanks @mweinelt, I agree we could do better to differentiate unofficial spaces on the website. Another suggestion could be to also change the unofficial buttons into links, thus demoting their visibility some.
In defense of keeping the links on the page, I think it's important for the community to link to unofficial spaces. People have different needs and reasons to choose different networks, and I'd like to keep the barriers to help low by meeting people where they are. We all know the learning curve is already high, and Discord allows them to skip the "new chat network" of Matrix to focus on what they're trying to accomplish with Nix*.
I think we should be able to clearly identify other popular unofficial spaces and their difference from the official spaces, without completely delisting Discord as #1439 attempts.
in #1439 @samueldr said:
I have only had second-hand reports for the other location. The other location may be worse depending on how accurate and pervasive the behaviour from the second-hand reports are, and one's opinion.
I'd be happy to discuss what goes on in the unofficial Discord, and how we can continue to be a more inviting place. I also would encourage anyone to join and see what the community is like themselves before making conclusions. I suspect any second-hand reports you have are already dated, but appreciate feedback on recent activity. I've only recently been promoted to an Admin there, but even in the past few weeks we've made improvements to improve things and will continue to do so.
Please feel free to send me any evidence of concerning activity in private if that helps. My door is always open.
I believe it is clear enough that the subreddit is not controlled by the moderators, hence the classification of "unofficial".
I do not, however, believe it is proper to suppress the largest Nix-based community not controlled by the moderators, specifically because the ongoing abuse of authority by those moderators is what created these "social issues in the community". This proposal is only further evidence of that.
Had to make an alt account so that my main account is not also banned for dissenting opinions.
I appreciate the concerns raised about r/NixOS. As an active member of that community, I've valued the open dialogue and diverse perspectives that contribute to its richness. Labeling the forum as unofficial sufficiently clarifies its status and maintains transparency.
While I understand the motivations behind wanting to ensure moderation aligns with community standards, it's crucial to recognize the importance of fostering a space where differing viewpoints can be respectfully exchanged. This approach prevents the formation of echo chambers and promotes a more inclusive environment.
Ensuring that our discussions remain constructive and respectful of all members is essential, and I just hope our moderation team will continue to guide us in upholding these principles effectively while also allowing users to discuss topics they don't personally agree with.
Mastodon, Twitter and Stackoverflow appears as if they were moderated by the NixOS moderation team, which is not the case
Yes, it's strange that social media tags appear under "official spaces".
The part where unofficial platforms are NOT moderated by the NixOS moderation team should receive more emphasis
I think the headers "Official Spaces" vs "Unofficial Spaces" already distinguishes this sufficiently.
The /r/nixos subreddit should likely be removed, as it is currently a major contributor to social issues in the community
This is a bad idea. Removing this exacerbates tensions in the community, for little-to-no benefit.
Its fine how it is.
@mweinelt you´re contributing in dividing the community, instead of helping it. Please stop this.
Just open the subreddit and have a look at it. People banned over here causing discord and spewing hatred.
Do we want this to be a representation of our community? Can we safely direct our community members to go there?
I have a lot of cool friends from the nixos discord. It is moderated to some extent thanks to a core group of active admins / mods. However, it feels like every week or so there is some kind of small scandal that goes down there. There are also a few privileged accounts that rarely interact with the community there at all / lay dormant (including atleast one who has been suspended in official spaces).
Just open the subreddit and have a look at it. People banned over here causing discord and spewing hatred.
Do we want this to be a representation of our community? Can we safely direct our community members to go there?
I think this is a good argument for separating official and unofficial communities. I would also recommend a warning under the unofficial communities section stating that the NixOS team does not moderate such spaces, and that the actions of them do not represent the NixOS team or community at large.
The /r/nixos subreddit should likely be removed
We've forgotten the responsibility of representing an open community on the internet if we look at a significant gathering of technical support bandwidth and community only to conclude that it should be excluded, especially because of the mere existence of certain users, who will naturally arrive there after being excluded from other spaces.
Reddit has, for better or worse, always used its own system of self-governance, upvotes and downvotes. The question is not who is allowed to speak, but whether what they have to say will be upvoted or buried by other users. Will waves gather momentum or fizzle out? It's not perfect, but it's a different principle of operation that emphasizes open authority of the users, and protecting that uniqueness is an important element of community diversity. Users who choose that platform do so because of the nature of that mechanism, and they should not be discriminated against.
Nobody expects the world to share a room, but we do expect to not go build a brick wall in front of our neighbor's driveway. The respect for the independence of different spaces and the freedom to move between them is a fundamental strength of online community. Oil and water will separate. That is natural and healthy.
Please keep in mind that this discussion is about how to achieve the mentioned points in the issue not if we should remove Reddit. Please use discourse for that.
On the topic of unofficial communities, I believe we are missing the Nix User groups there (https://nix.ug) and the IRC channels (which I don't have any connection with)
Is the definition of offical "moderated by the NixOS GitHub organization mod team" or "officially promoted by the NixOS foundation"? If it isn't the latter, I can see keeping StackOverflow, Twitter and Mastodon on there.
The /r/nixos subreddit should likely be removed, as it is currently a major contributor to social issues in the community
How so? It looks more like the moderation team is doing all this to themselves, as the subreddit only reacts to those. I was expecting stuff to get quieter after 20 days after the deadline but thanks to the moderation team it has not. Maybe the team should be replaced instead? Everyone knows you can't get a functioning community without compromises.
How so? It looks more like the moderation team is doing all this to themselves, as the subreddit only reacts to those. I was expecting stuff to get quieter after 20 days after the deadline but thanks to the moderation team it has not. Maybe the team should be replaced instead? Everyone knows you can't get a functioning community without compromises.
I'm so confused what your trying to say.
How so? It looks more like the moderation team is doing all this to themselves, as the subreddit only reacts to those. I was expecting stuff to get quieter after 20 days after the deadline but thanks to the moderation team it has not. Maybe the team should be replaced instead? Everyone knows you can't get a functioning community without compromises.
I'm so confused what your trying to say.
I think the moderation team are the ones causing the "social issues" and that they should be replaced.
Please keep in mind that this discussion is about how to achieve the mentioned points in the issue not if we should remove Reddit. Please use discourse for that.
then this issue needs to be closed. its trying to unilaterally remove reddit, without a community discussion.
I'd like to propose a potential compromise:
- Remove all unofficial platform buttons
- Invite unofficial platforms to adopt the same moderation policies / collaborate with the official moderation team.
- Add unofficial platforms as links that agree to point # 2
Would this work for the Discord, @adamcstephens ? I think the Discord could be a model example of how to handle the reality that there are more platforms people want to use than the official moderation team could support. By publicly saying "we aren't one mod team but we work together and share basic commitments" we can signal that the community is united while also open and flexible. Any thoughts @piegamesde or @mweinelt ?
Clarification: by "collaborate with the official moderation team" I mean the mods of whatever unofficial platform should be in the official moderation Matrix room (or whatever other channel) and discuss / coordinate moderation decisions. So if X person is suspended from Discourse for Y time, then X person is also suspended for Y time on Discord (or whatever other unofficial platform).
While i personally see the point of removing unmoderated spaces and assuming that the reddit is as problematic as has been said (i dont know so i will refrain from making any judgements there), i can also see why ditching reddit is sane, but i also think that for transparency all should be kept. But i dont really wanna touch on this as i dont have any valid factual opinion to share.
But i would like chip in with something else. I think that removing unofficial spaces and then adding them back on the condition that they adopt the same moderation policies and CoC essentially makes them official. As in the end it shouldnt matter who moderates those spaces but that they are moderated equally. (I know we're all human and two teams following the same guidelines will never agree on what action to take 100% of the time, but still i think the team shouldnt be the deciding factor but the policies)
So then my suggestion is a 3 way split:
- offficial - same team
- unofficial - same policies
- unmoderated - differing policies
with my moderation hat on
Various people have been able to state their opposing opinion on the matter and have not become the victim of “abuse of authority”, as claimed. This issue was opened precisely with the idea to have a discussion on the matter.
But under no circumstance are we accepting sockpuppeting, a deceptive practice that circumvents the need to have an appropriate amount of restraint, in sensitive discussions like these.
I think the de-emphasizing links to unofficial spaces by, for example, making them text-only and not pills makes sense (kind of surprised about Mastodon and Twitter being considered official, if not managed by the NixOs organisation).
I don't think requiring unofficial spaces to implement the exact same moderation policies as official spaces makes sense - they then become de-facto official spaces.
But it also makes sense that a space could become an associated spaces, by adopting the same policies as official spaces, should they want to, which is essentially @MagicRB's suggestion.
I don't think unofficial spaces (in the sense of differing moderation policies) necessarily need to be removed, because "those also exists if you don't want those above" is not really a glowing endorsement IMO. I certainly wouldn't expect it to link to someonething s inane as, say, a "Fascist Nix User Group", but r/NixOS is not that even if (suspiciously eyes sridcaca) it has some problems.
That said, everything apart from de-emphasizing unofficial spaces and making it clear they might not follow the same standards as official spaces feels like a policy decision and maybe should be deferred to whatever comes out of the constitutional assembly.
Assuming the subreddit would rather prefer an independent moderation policy, why don't we just kindly ask them to add a disclaimer in the title: "An unofficial NixOS subreddit" or "not associated with the NixOS foundation/NixOS governance/etc". The NixOS community web page could be updated to say "here's other communities discussing NixOS: [reddit]". I don't see any reason they should oppose that...
I don't mind that there are links to unofficial communities like Reddit. I don't place any value on a forum being "official" or being controlled by the NixOS moderation team.
The goal here in linking to different forums should be to help users connect and find assistance in the places where they are most comfortable. Their opinions about the NixOS moderation team shouldn't be a consideration. This is about helping users, not helping moderators.
Reddit is a major social media platform and there are about 25k subscribers to the NixOS community. It's reasonable to think that plenty of users would like to discuss the project over there.
Assuming the subreddit would rather prefer an independent moderation policy, why don't we just kindly ask them to add a disclaimer in the title: "An unofficial NixOS subreddit" or "not associated with the NixOS foundation/NixOS governance/etc". The NixOS community web page could be updated to say "here's other communities discussing NixOS: [reddit]". I don't see any reason they should oppose that...
I think it would be good for them to clarify that they are not official. I just think we shouldn't link to unofficial fora unless they agree to broadly work together with the official mods. I don't really care about the naming conventions @MagicRB, I want us to be intentional and link (I presume mainly for the benefit of newcomers) to places that we officially endorse.
I find reddit, discord, etc really active and helpful. My experience on matrix was a mixed bag, k900 is awesome and helpful. When I asked about why jlink was dropped from nixpkgs and how I could help get it updated and back in there was a whole thing with a few people that seemed to think it was important I know closed source is bad, it shouldn't be in nixpkgs, etc etc and that rubbed me the wrong way. Haven't yet experienced that sort of issue on discord or reddit.
Mastodon, Twitter and Stackoverflow appears as if they were moderated by the NixOS moderation team, which is not the case
Definitely. Those three should probably move in with the other unofficial spaces.
The visual difference between official and unofficial spaces could be made clearer, e.g. by using a different coloring.
I think once those three links are moved under the Unofficial heading, the headers themselves will be enough differentiation. It wouldn't do any harm to use a more muted color like putting them in gray, though. That should probably be the Marketing team's call.
The /r/nixos subreddit should likely be removed, as it is currently a major contributor to social issues in the community
I don't think this is an accurate or informed assessment.
- /r/nixos is 99% technical discussion, if you check it regularly. The proportion of drama hellthreads to the rest of the discussion is about the same as the Discourse or Zulip. Consequently, it shouldn't be considered a "major contributor to social issues" any more than any other forum.
- The posts in /r/nixos that are about the drama are mostly posted by srid. Don't blame the whole subreddit when there's one person in particular who is easily identifiable and has a clear track record and motive.
- Half of srid's posts are downvoted because the subreddit thinks they're too drama-monger-y. If you read the comments on drama posts, a number of users are annoyed that it gets posted and want to go back to technical discussion.
- Where the subreddit does upvote a drama post or comment in support, it is expressing a category of opinions that have also been voiced in GitHub discussions, Discourse, or Zulip. It does not make sense to blame the subreddit specifically for the existence of one "faction" in the current community unrest.
- If I may editorialize, the social issues in the community are caused by the fact that there are multiple "factions" whose views are irreconciliable. It does not make sense to blame one "faction" for this, because neither "faction" is creating the problem on their own; it's the fact that both "factions" exist and cannot get along that causes the problem. Either "faction" giving up and leaving (or forcibly ejecting the other) would "solve" the problem: not because they were really the cause of the issues, but because the issues were caused by having two opposed sides.
Finally, I would caution attempting to purge unofficial communities from these lists, because there is currently a large subset of Nix users who feel that their views are not being heard fairly in official spaces or that the moderation is biased against them. In such a circumstance, trying to remove spaces where that opinion is expressed will feed into that and undermine the perceived legitimacy of the moderation team, at a time when such a resource is all the more valuable for its scarcity. (The fact that this was even proposed means some of the damage is already done, unfortunately.)
Basically the same feedback as @Jaculabilis .
(I'm curious if there's any thought given to linking out to the forks or not. I personally think it's not right/needed, but I could see "If you liked this, try other neat flavors" as a justification.)
Mastodon, Twitter and Stackoverflow appears as if they were moderated by the NixOS moderation team, which is not the case
Agreed. This is 100% an issue with the current design. Moving those three links down into the "Unofficial" section would make sense to me. Seems an easy and straightforward fix, especially since all those are more "view content tagged as Nix in this space" as opposed to "this is our official Twitter, Mastodon, etc."
The /r/nixos subreddit should likely be removed, as it is currently a major contributor to social issues in the community
There's a lot of good technical discussion there, in spite of a couple of trolls. It also has around 24K users if Reddit is to be believed, so it's not exactly a fringe thing.
If we were to remove spaces based solely on some things and actors we disagreed with, we'd probably need to shut down the Github, DIscourse, Matrix, and especially Zulip.
The visual difference between official and unofficial spaces could be made clearer, e.g. by using a different coloring
Is page design a marketing team domain? I think the current design is nice and coherent, though maybe a de-saturated palette could also be used.
I just think we shouldn't link to unofficial fora unless they agree to broadly work together with the official mods.
Hard disagree. We should link to them if users are likely to find value there; moderation concerns are secondary (also, if they're working together with the official mods, that implies somewhat a degree of "officialness" does it not?).
If we were to remove spaces based solely on some things and actors we disagreed with, we'd probably need to shut down the Github, DIscourse, Matrix, and especially Zulip.
Please don't troll GitHub issues. This is where contributors come to actually get work done. It's not funny, it's not cute, it's not sincere. Not only is this a total misrepresentation of what has been said previously, it's a blatant flaming of the official Nix / Nixpkgs / NixOS community. I know that folks on "dissident" Matrix rooms, Reddit, etc. have linked to this issue and riled up their audience, but please think twice before coming over here and making noise like this.
How so? It looks more like the moderation team is doing all this to themselves, as the subreddit only reacts to those. I was expecting stuff to get quieter after 20 days after the deadline but thanks to the moderation team it has not. Maybe the team should be replaced instead? Everyone knows you can't get a functioning community without compromises.
I'm so confused what your trying to say.
I think the moderation team are the ones causing the "social issues" and that they should be replaced.
What's the purpose of this inflammatory comment?
If we were to remove spaces based solely on some things and actors we disagreed with, we'd probably need to shut down the Github, DIscourse, Matrix, and especially Zulip.
Please don't troll GitHub issues. This is where contributors come to actually get work done. It's not funny, it's not cute, it's not sincere. Not only is this a total misrepresentation of what has been said previously, it's a blatant flaming of the official Nix / Nixpkgs / NixOS community. I know that folks on "dissident" Matrix rooms, Reddit, etc. have linked to this issue and riled up their audience, but please think twice before coming over here and making noise like this.
No offense but your opinion does not speak for the community as a whole and your response is ironic. Just because other members don't sit and chat in the same rooms as you doesn't make their opinions any less valid than yours and you need to work on respecting other members of this community better @nat-418
Can we at least all agree that moving the Mastodon, Twitter, and Stack Overflow buttons to the "Unofficial" section is a good idea?
Can we at least all agree that moving the Mastodon, Twitter, and Stack Overflow buttons to the "Unofficial" section is a good idea?
Maybe we have to change the wording of the title then, since Mastodon and Twitter are technically official though not moderated. Guess calling them moderated and unmoderated would be an option.