SCEE
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Helium314
bench material quest is not clear how to answer for benches made out of multiple materials
How to Reproduce
encounter amenity=bench
Expected Behavior
quest is clear how to answer in typical cases
Does it happen in normal StreetComplete?
no, there is no such quest there
Versions affected
v61.1
bench made of wood (seat) and metal (construction)
it is unclear how quest should be answered
It is about a main material (the one tagged with material=*). So in case of benches the material the user will sit on (and thus care about). I.e. in the example picture above, you should answer wood.
Quest is not about material of supports / foundation structures. People caring about that would IMHO be in minority, so (currently) should use raw tag editor to tag support:material=* if they care about micromapping that information.
Do you @matkoniecz have suggestion for better / more understandable text how it should asked? Taking into account that it is about main/contact/usable/consumer-related surface of multiple things (like benches, picnic tables, loungers etc)?
Would just a better Quest text be enough, or should one add (i)nfo panel explaining what is asked?
It is about a main material
well, for this I would say that metal is main one
if question is about bench seat then I would refer specifically to that in question (and probably also tag in a more specific tag)
As a new user of SCEE, I agree that the wording of the quest is unclear. I wasn't sure how to answer when encountering a bench made of multiple materials and had to look it up.
Currently the quest text is "What's this made of?", my suggestion would be to simply change it to "What material is the seat made of?"
Currently the quest text is "What's this made of?", my suggestion would be to simply change it to "What material is the seat made of?"
The main problem is that quest is asked for several other things, and not just for benches, and so the text should be generic to cover all of them (at least all of them initially included in the quest; but preferably also generic enough so it can be applied to all material=* that user can customize it on). Click on that gear icon near quest for details.
For example, for bench it is "seating", for lounger it is about "laying" ("bedding"?) surface, and for table it is "eating" area.
So making it too specific (like "What material is the seat made of?") would be even more confusing if it was asked for say, amenity=waste_basket.
Of course, better suggestion for wording for generic case which covers material=* is surely welcome; I've though about:
- What’s this made of?
+ What main material is this made of?
because:
- JOSM, Vespucci, EveryDoor offer no better explanation about that field then just the text "Material"
- iD does provide extra info (when info button on that field is clicked): "Describes the main material of a physical feature."
Would that be more clear @Aurareus? Or something similar but still generic / all-encompassing?
If not, I think technically we could add several additional different texts for special cases like benches, loungers, picnic tables etc. We'd need different text for each of the tags on which material=* can be tagged then, and extra code and translator and maintenance work...
But sincerely, those special cases seem like overkill to me, given that SCEE requires one to first enable "Expert mode" to be able to enable that quest (which explains the issues and asks to confirm it), and that even then the Quest is explicitly disabled with warning message:
Quests added in SCEE are always disabled by default, as they may not always be answerable, and may require knowledge of the topic and tagging.
Still, I'd love for SCEE to be as user-friendly as reasonably possible; but is it reasonable to try to make "expert edition" easier to use than iD editor intended for beginners? 🤔 😅
There has to be a cutoff line somewhere, and much other SCEE quests require knowledge of the tags (e.g. whether that shelter is "picnic shelter", "gazebo" or "sun shelter" is not clear unless one read their wikis, or is that artwork "graffiti" or "mural" is often unclear without consulting the wiki, or type of street cabinet etc).
probably also tag in a more specific tag
Uh, which one did you think of @matkoniecz ?
It seems that OSM community have settled on using material=* on benches -- it is by far most common tag for that purpose on amenity=bench (in fact, it is second most popular tag on benches, bested only be backrest=*), with more than a million uses ( ~34%) of all benches.
It is also the main field for benches in id-tagging-schema so used by iD, Vespucci, EveryDoor etc., and also the JOSM independently offers the same material=* tag on benches.
Only other seemingly related tag I've been able to find on taginfo is surface=*, but that is used only in 0.15% of benches[^1] (and is not documented in amenity=bench wiki), so I'm reluctant to making SCEE using such unpopular tag combination when much popular and community-accepted alternative exists.
Anyway, IMHO if the issue is with wiki and multiple different editors what tag should be used instead of material=* on benches, then such extra tag should be discussed/proposed in wider community than SCEE issue tracker. 🤷♂️
[^1]: unless I've missed some, any possible other alternatives thus have even less usages that that so Taginfo doesn't even register them, i.e. at least 3 orders of magnitude less usages than commonly used material=*.
If not, technically we could add several additional different texts for special cases like benches, loungers, picnic tables etc.
-
Or alternatively we can (in addition to that generic text change) add
(i)nfobutton (like e.g. tactile paving quest has), and explain in it something along the lines (better suggestions welcome!):What is considered "main" material differs depending on the primary tag: e.g. for benches it is material that you sit on, but for waste baskets it is outer material of the basket holding waste, etc. Please consult OSM wiki for main tag for clarifications. Note that some cases will still be unclear or impossible to answer: you can always just hide the quest, leave a note (if you feel the data recorded is important enough), or ask the community for guidance on https://c.osm.org)
-
or just include short example in the question itself (although it would likely split into multiple lines):
- What’s this made of?
+ What main material (e.g. seating on benches) is this made of?
The main problem is that quest is asked for several other things, and not just for benches, and so the text should be generic to cover all of them (at least all of them initially included in the quest; but preferably also generic enough so it can be applied to all material=* that user can customize it on).
Ah, I see the predicament. In that case then I would agree that something like "What material is the main part of this object made of?" is about as good as it's going to get. Which is a little unsatisfying as it's open to interpretation what "main part" refers to. Plus other quests likely ask the same question about objects where "main part" would be even more ambiguous. And ambiguity leads to inconsistency in how objects are tagged by users.
But honestly I just don't see it being worth the extra work in order to support different text for every different object that can have this quest type.
I do have an alternative suggestion, one that I am personally a lot more fond of because it simultaneously leaves far less room for interpretation, improves the actual information tagged and allows the text to remain generic:
Although admittedly it is quite rare, it does appear that there is existing precedent for setting multiple values for material=* like wood;metal.
So perhaps the quest could allow you to select/highlight multiple options?
I don't know if there are any existing quests in SC or SCEE that work like this though (allow the user to select more than 1 option), and if there aren't I can imagine the work of implementing that functionality would be more than this realistically very niche issue justifies.
Moreover, I hesitate to even suggest this as an option as I know the intention with SCEE is always to follow established tagging conventions and thus I suspect the ~0.2% of instances where multiple values are used for material=* is not going to considered a compelling argument 😆
Or alternatively we can (in addition to that generic text change) add (i)nfo button (like e.g. tactile paving quest has), and explain in it something along the lines (better suggestions welcome!):
I think that's a pretty reasonable compromize. Just something accessible to the user presented with the quest that at least points them in the direction towards how to correctly tag the object is good enough. As you say, there is only so much handholding SCEE should be expected to do. But wherever it doesn't increase development effort too much and doesn't conflict with enabling more powerful editing, I think it's always worth at least pointing the user in the right direction.
To get some feel what people would prefer, on this post everyone please react with your preferred solution(s):
- 👍 it is fine as it is (i.e. "What’s this made of?") (obviously the easiest!)
- 🚀 just change Quest to have clearer generic text e.g. "What material is the main part of this object made of?"
- ❤️ just change Quest text to have short example e.g. "What main material (e.g. seating on benches) is this made of?"
- 🎉 Quest generic text e.g. "What material is the main part of this object made of?" + extra (i)nfo button with longer multi-sentence explanation of what "main part" is.
- 😕 change Quest to clearer generic text e.g. "What material is the main part of this object made of?" + extra special text per-object type (e.g. "What material is the seat of this bench made of?", ...) (this is the most complex solution)
- 👀 something else (add a comment detailing what)
So making it too specific (like "What material is the seat made of?") would be even more confusing if it was asked for say, amenity=waste_basket.
If you add amenity=waste_basket to the element selection is SCEE, you create a changeset with "Add material information to benches" on a waste_basket. The quest in its current form is already specific to benches and benches like objects like picnic tables.
The pictures also show benches.
That being said, making a generic material quest like we have a generic ref quest would be nice too.
If you add
amenity=waste_basketto the element selection is SCEE, you create a changeset with "Add material information to benches" on a waste_basket
Yeah, it is even misleading as it is (i.e. by default without any changes) - it will say the same text about "benches" for loungers and picnic tables, etc. and even group them all together. Perhaps best would be changing the text to:
- Add material information to benches
+ Add material information to features
or "objects", "elements" etc. instead of "features" (suggestions for better wording welcome)?
The pictures also show benches.
Well yeah, but I personally would not bother taking separate pictures of different-material benches, different-material picnic tables, different-material loungers etc. and increasing app size just so the quest would look visually more "neat" in SCEE...
It could become text-only quest, but I personally think it is nicer if it shows some examples of material (even if not completely on-topic), and benches were initial target, and are probably most common occurrence of the quest anyway, so they seem appropriate to me. Or do you disagree?
As you mention the images: Can the main issue be solved with changing the "wood" image to an bench with metal frame?
It seems that OSM community have settled on using material=* on benches -- it is by far most common tag for that purpose on amenity=bench (in fact, it is second most popular tag on benches,
Ouch? I still think that it is terrible and confusing tagging scheme, but as far as windmill tilting goes I prefer more important cases so I will not propose deprecations
Can the main issue be solved with changing the "wood" image to an bench with metal frame?
Sure. I'm little short on mobile data RN, so if someone can search https://commons.wikimedia.org/ and suggest a appropriate picture of such bench, I can change it.
When you say "main issue be solved", did you mean / would people prefer to:
- 👍 just change the picture
- 🚀 new picture + change Quest to have clearer generic text e.g. "What material is the main part of this object made of?"
- 🎉 no picture change; just Quest generic text e.g. "What material is the main part of this object made of?" + extra (i)nfo button with longer multi-sentence explanation of what "main part" is (previous favorite)
- ❤️ new picture + Quest generic text e.g. "What material is the main part of this object made of?" + extra (i)nfo button with longer multi-sentence explanation of what "main part" is.
- 👀 something else (add a comment detailing what)
Sure. I'm little short on mobile data RN, so if someone can search https://commons.wikimedia.org/ and suggest a appropriate picture of such bench, I can change it.
The best benches I found that match the criteria "wood with non-wood support" (future criteria like license, ... TBD):
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wooden_bench_with_backrest_and_one_armrest.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wood_and_cast_iron_bench_in_Copped_Hall_Kitchen_Garden,_Epping,_Essex,_England.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bench_in_the_Woods_(9766674673).jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Victoria_Centennial_Fountain,_Victoria,_British_Columbia,_Canada_13.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Garden_bench_001.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wooden_bench_with_backrest_and_one_armrest.jpg
Thanks! that one isn't bad (no distracting surroundings, clear metal parts), but the contrast with background is to low IMHO, so when size is reduced it might not be as good.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Garden_bench_001.jpg
I think this one looks best to me. Greenery is maybe little distracting, but it makes for good contrast, and bench clearly has metal parts. So I would go with that one, unless someone has better suggestion?
So I would go with that one, unless someone has better suggestion?
Is good I think.
Otherwise here are some more with contrast:
- https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/lustige-sachen-d/123833/676 (😄)
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Botanic_Garden_-Cluj_Napoca(3316455393).jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Banc_du_lyc%C3%A9e.jpeg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bench_at_Water%27s_Edge_Country_Park_-geograph.org.uk-_4345789.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Covid-19_pandemic_Downhills_Park_Ornamental_Garden_bench_sign_Tottenham_London_1.jpg
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bench_in_Wellington_(53).jpg (low contrast?)
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bench_in_Davygate_by_New_Street_York_Aug25.jpg (low contrast)
These ones seem the most appropriate, imo:
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bench_in_Davygate_by_New_Street_York_Aug25.jpg
Non-wood parts are very clear, contrast with background isn't great though.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bench_in_Wellington_(53).jpg
This one is my personal preference. The current photo used on the bench quest is one of only two backrest-less examples and the clearer of the two, I think it would be good to maintain diversity of examples (as this issue illustrates). Contrast with the background is decent, not great but probably high enough I think. The non-wood parts are very clearly distinguished from the wood, but I suppose it is possible they could be mistaken for painted wood rather than metal.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bench_at_Water%27s_Edge_Country_Park_-geograph.org.uk-_4345789.jpg
This would be my second pick. High contrast from background/surroundings, non-wood parts clearly distinct from the wood, and it's a fairly unique bench design. I think you'd want to crop it in a bit though, as-is I'd say it a bit too zoomed out.